Three 6.5mms

[Four Fingers of Death]

As a matter of interest, there are new Swede barrels for sale in Australia for $AU390. Mind you, a year or two ago, we wouldn't have paid that much for a complete rifle in excellent condition!

[Mike Venturino]

I was fiddling with more photos this evening and came across a photo of another 6.5mm. This is the Type 44 and a fellow gave me one back in December. Appropriately it arrived on Christmas Eve.

This isn't it. This is a friend's. The one I received is in better condition - mum and all. I haven't fired it yet - snow, wind and all.



Mike V.

[C1PNR]

DJ303,
That looks like one Heck of a fine Project! You must keep us up to date on your testing.

I like ALL of the Surplus Rifles, well, OK, MOST of them anyway, but I really like the Carbine length.

[CLAYPOOL]

I had a Jap. 99 gave to me a few months back. Didn't know what it was as the mum's gone + every thing else expect the serial #. WE think kids were allowed to play with it as the bolt is gone. Also 2 layers of shoe (?) material is nailed to the butt with small nails. I went to the Boonville, Ind. gun show last weekend and saw a few complete ones. So It was I.D. A few screws + the ladder sight is gone also. It has spent a lot of time in a out side shed..so..I was also gave a Weaver J..2.6 scope. It looks to be 3/4" in Dia. Rear lens is loose, but you can see through it. Post + Hortizonal cross wire. Kindaw neat..I haven't seen either ones of those for MANY years...
CLAYPOOL

[Four Fingers of Death]

I had a Jap. 99 gave to me a few months back. Didn't know what it was as the mum's gone + every thing else expect the serial #. WE think kids were allowed to play with it as the bolt is gone. Also 2 layers of shoe (?) material is nailed to the butt with small nails. I went to the Boonville, Ind. gun show last weekend and saw a few complete ones. So It was I.D. A few screws + the ladder sight is gone also. It has spent a lot of time in a out side shed..so..I was also gave a Weaver J..2.6 scope. It looks to be 3/4" in Dia. Rear lens is loose, but you can see through it. Post + Hortizonal cross wire. Kindaw neat..I haven't seen either ones of those for MANY years...
CLAYPOOL

Not much good as a rifle and too short to be used as a tomato stake

[scrapcan]

We must be careful when we ask for 50 an d60 degree weather here in the western US. We had and have 50 degree weather here is south east wyoming, but we also have 50 mph winds.

Nice rifles Mike. If you need to borrow a 6.5 mould I would loan the 45 2.1 designed Group buy mould that was used for some testing back last year by Larry Gibson.

[doubs43]

The military rifle I'd love to get my hands on is an original M904 Portuguese Vergueiro, made by DWM and chambered in 6.5x58mm. I have a fine example of the Mauser rework M904/39 that is chambered in 8mm Mauser but the original has always intrigued me. I seriously doubt that too many exist.

[Combat Diver]

Nice rifles Mike, like your article in Rifle also. My uncle gave me a Type 38 with the mum still on it but the bore was never cleaned so it is also a sewer pipe. I've never shot that one. My mother recently found which I hope is my missing Swede 96 carbine. Both are at her house down in San Antonio and I don't know when I'll get down there to pick them up.

CD

[Linstrum]

- - - My uncle gave me a Type 38 with the mum still on it but the bore was never cleaned so it is also a sewer pipe. - - -

CD

Hey, Combat Diver, the Arisaka rifles had chrome plated bores, so your Japanese rifle just needs a good scrubbing out and it'll be shiny as new!


rl950

[doubs43]

Hey, Combat Diver, the Arisaka rifles had chrome plated bores, so your Japanese rifle just needs a good scrubbing out and it'll be shiny as new! rl950

Unfortunately, the Type 38 rifles are likely to have normal bores without chrome plating. They were made before the Japanese began protecting their bore with chrome. I won't say that the last production Type 38's didn't have chrome bores but mine isn't and I can't recall ever seeing or even hearing of one that was.

[JSH]

Not to hijack your thread Mike but this wil pertain to the 6.5's.
My Swede shoots exceptionally well out to 100M, scary really.
Know the problem. It flat comes apart and will not group past that. I have tried different powders and speeds etc with no luck. I forget what the bullet was but it is a bore rider. I have picked up one of the early NEI moulds but have not had time to try it as of yet
I don't have a leading problem either bore cleans up with just a couple of patches of Ed's red or kroil.
I suspect as it loses speed it is getting very unstable, but I have not seen any sign of key holing on paper. It acts mor like it is picking up the twist. Hold center and it may hit at 6 o'clock' same hold and it may hit at 9 or 3 o clock. Somthing of a big round pattern.
James and I saw this happen with the wheel guns and decided that it was predictable enough to just change or windage. It doesn't apply with the random hits with this rifle though.
Any help from you gents would ceratainly be tried.
Thanks
Jeff

[calkar]

The 266469 has been pretty stable for me out to 300m. Before the weather turned crappy I was keeping them in about a 5gal. bucket offhand. That was with just 16gr of 2400, but not quite snappy enough to knock down high power silhouette pigs though.

[Linstrum]

Hi, doubs43, you could be quite right, it may be that the Japanese mainly did the chrome plating as a refinement on the 7.7 mm, and then only on the ones before they got into the "last ditch" 7.7 mm production when the war was coming to an end. The first Japanese rifle I ever saw was a 6.5 mm that was a mess outside, a bit rusted with dinged up wood, but the guy who had it said to look down the bore and it was shiny as could be! It was either chrome plated or had had some good care with regard to the bore.

Maybe Mike can take a look at the bore on his and see what it looks like? Now I'd like to know!

rl952

[Linstrum]

Not to hijack your thread Mike but this wil pertain to the 6.5's.
My Swede shoots exceptionally well out to 100M, scary really.
Know the problem. It flat comes apart and will not group past that. I have tried different powders and speeds etc with no luck. I forget what the bullet was but it is a bore rider. I have picked up one of the early NEI moulds but have not had time to try it as of yet
I don't have a leading problem either bore cleans up with just a couple of patches of Ed's red or kroil.
I suspect as it loses speed it is getting very unstable, but I have not seen any sign of key holing on paper. It acts mor like it is picking up the twist. Hold center and it may hit at 6 o'clock' same hold and it may hit at 9 or 3 o clock. Somthing of a big round pattern.
James and I saw this happen with the wheel guns and decided that it was predictable enough to just change or windage. It doesn't apply with the random hits with this rifle though.
Any help from you gents would ceratainly be tried.
Thanks
Jeff

Hey, JSH, about your Swede that goes to pieces beyond 100 m. I have two Swedes , a m96 and a m96/38 and neither of them do that, so it could be the boolit you are using if it is 160 grains. Since you don't have leading then your lube is probably going okay, otherwise I'd say that your lube may be contributing. If you recall, the longer the projectile is the higher the rotational velocity or rate of twist it needs to stabilize it, and I have stayed away from the 160 grain 6.5 mm boolits because of stability problems due to its length. I have used 160 grain copper jacketed okay, though, but they are driven pretty fast compared to cast. Unfortunately heavy bullets are needed to carry knock down energy and the little 140 grain just does not do as well as the 160 grain at the low velocities obtainable with cast in the Swede, so we use 160 grain to hit harder but the down side of using 160 grain cast is they can't be driven fast enough to stabilize well. As a result they destabilize long before they get out very far. So your thought that the boolit is becoming unstable at about 100 meters is a very astute observation! A few of us have been getting better than the 1600 feet per second that is the rule of thumb for the Swede's high rate of twist by using very slow powders and using 140 grain boolits cast in linotype or other fairly hard alloy. I use a special alloy I concocted that contains phosphorus and copper as hardening agents (about like linotype, try that and see what it does for you) and by estimation of my powder charges I am getting around 2200 feet per second using IMR5010, which is a .50 BMG powder. Some other Swede shooters are getting similar results with other slow powders like IMR7828 and WC860. The boolit I'm using is the Saeco 140 grain .264 that is about a 2-radius nose profile. I had to lap my dual cavity mold out to drop the boolits at 0.002" larger than bore diameter, which in my case are 0.267" for one rifle and 0.269" for the other. As I recall the Saeco normally drops them at 0.267", so you may not need to lap it if you go that route, depending on what your rifle bore slugs at.

So, try some real slow powder like IMR7828 or IMR5010 in conjunction with the 140 grain Saeco .264, I think it is the only .264/6.5mm boolit mold Saeco makes. Warning: Do not try using a full cartridge case of slow powder with the 6.5 Swede, start REAL conservative at about 30 grains of IMR7828 (unless there is a listing in the load table for that powder), or about 39 grains with a .50 BMG powder and work up slowly since I got signs of high pressure even with a .50 BMG powder way before the case was full.

Maybe we should get off this thread and start another one since it is hijacking it, maybe the others here will continue adding their thoughts as well, we'll get it figured out.


rl953

[Chris Smith]

I have one of the "cruise missle' molds and mine produces bullets at .270. One thing I did find out about the bullet is that if it isn't gas checked it will leave a lot of it's self in the barrel. I cast from wheel weights and the lube I tried was melted Rooster Red. I didn't have anything else at the time. Gas checks cured the leading problem though. I have a Lyman 266673 that I bought for my Type I. It does ok but I probably need to use a different lube because with the long barrel and only one lube groove I get leading from this bullet. I should have opted for the Loverin style that Lyman selld. I can't recall the number but it has lots more area for lube. I currently have some Lyman Super Moly lube and it seems to be good but my results in the smaller 6.5s has showh that I need something else, I think. My Carcano 41 does pretty good with the cruise missle and 18 grains of IMR-4198. No idea about velocity but I can't see the bullet in flight.

[calkar]

boolit sizing, alloy and velocity is top priority, lube is low on the list. I have been using scrap toilet rings and jpw. My bores never lead and rarely have to be cleaned.

[rla1000]

Mike, please heeeeelp!

I just read your piece on these three rifles in one of my shooting mags and now I can't locate it. I have looked through every mag in my "current" stack five times cover to cover, along with the past few GD annuals, and still no luck. Hopefully you'll come back to this thread and can enlighten me as to which mag and which issue. A big thanks. btw, the article was outstanding and I am looking to it to help guide me in purchase of an M96.

[doubs43]

rla1000, try "RIFLE" magazine, March 2011, page 64.

[rla1000]

rla1000, try "RIFLE" magazine, March 2011, page 64.

Thanks doubs, sounds right, will do. I can't imagine how I could have missed it.

[Mike Venturino]

rla1000: Sorry I didn't get back to you faster - been to a gun show all weekend. No treasures found though.

Thanks
Mike V.