Cast bullets in .223

[JKH]

I was able to try some lods using 18.5 grains AA2230C before the snow flew (and still hasnt left!), I used LEE Bator's cast from straight lino-type, checks made from .008" newspaper lith plates on a Freechex II tool and tumble lubed with 2 light coats LLA.

I was shooting for function and it was dusk so I didnt exect much for accuracy, I stuck a large maple leaf on one of my pines at 50 yards, then shot from the back of a deck chair while kneeling on the deck.

Function I am happy to say was 100% (DPMS side charging handle upper wih an Armalite 24" stainless match bull barrel, rifle length gas system), although I cant say how far the empty's would fly as I always use a brass catcher (NO WAY will I let good brass be lost!). Recoil seemed close to standard ball and the bolt locked back on the empty mag twice. Of course 2 - 5 round groups is NOT definitive for everall function and accuracy but it is promising, and as far as accuracy the one group I actually shot at the leaf (a SPOT on the leaf) was right around 1" with one cloverleaf, this just might work well I think :^ )

I just built 16" carbine for my sns friend and will snag it for some carbine testing (once the several feet of snow disapears and the temperature is not near zero, maybey May!), if I get good functioning in both rifles and can manage at least 2" groups at 100yard then I will load 500 to 1000 for some good cheap shooting and will hoard my various lots of ball ammo for more serious work.

Now the big question is this; I do have a fair amount of lino-type and could conceivably cast 50K .22 boolits with it, but, I am cheap! And aso lazy ;^ ) So I really dont want to spend a lot of time testing between air cooled and water dropped wheel weights and lino, so would I be okay just going with water dropped wheel weight alloy and save my precious Lino-type for who knos what in the future? (it is pure virgin lino and the little .22 boolits are a shiny joy to behold, but its all I have). Let me know what you guys think.

Jeff

[Moonie]

I use water dropped WW's in my AR, no leading using 18gr H4895, and like you, perfect functioning (midlength gas rather than rifle)

[JKH]

Hmmm, like the sounds of that Moonie, what type of barrel, chrome moly(sp?), chrome lined or stainless?

Also, what type of lube and what did you size the boolits to? Mine are sized at .226"

[Moonie]

Chrome moly 16" 5.56 chamber sized .225 lubed with FWFL 1-9"

[JKH]

I wonder if I can push the straight lino boolits to jacketed bullet velocities? Anyone load cast in a .223 to standard ball ammo speeds?

[JIMinPHX]

I've gone over 3,000fps with cast in a .223. With Lyman Super Moly Lube, I had no leading, but accuracy was not good at all. My boolits were either 13bnh or 23bnh, depending on heat treat. The 23 was a little better, but not much. I probably didn't have a hard enough alloy. I haven't gotten around to messing with speeds that high since my first go-round with it. At 2400fps, I can get good results with what I have now.

[GabbyM]

23 BHN is about as hard as is usable.
At some point the rifling will cut the bullet instead of deformig the rifling groves in it.

[stubshaft]

23 BHN is about as hard as is usable.
At some point the rifling will cut the bullet instead of deformig the rifling groves in it.

I have read in other threads and now this one about the mythical supposition that rifling will cut into a boolit as opposed to just displacing the metal.

If that is so where does the metal that is "cut" go? Does the boolit weigh less? Does it result in fins on the base of the boolit? Does it leave "curls" of metal in the bore?

[kbstenberg]

I am an extreme newby to casting an loading for the .223. At this point I have only cast 1 time with an older Lyman 225646 (I think) Will those tiny lube groves hold enough lube to keep the bullet from leading? I would assume they do but just wondering.
How meany of you inspect your bullets under some type of magnifying lens to detect surface flaws?
An do you weigh each bullet an separate by . 1 gr increments? It surprised me. That the first bullets i cast were almost 90% within .8 gr weight differential.
Kevin

[GabbyM]

I have read in other threads and now this one about the mythical supposition that rifling will cut into a boolit as opposed to just displacing the metal.

If that is so where does the metal that is "cut" go? Does the boolit weigh less? Does it result in fins on the base of the boolit? Does it leave "curls" of metal in the bore?

Cut is probably not the best word to use. Of course rifling won’t cut like a broach cutter.
The metal turns into fouling. Then a person can only guess what’s going on.

I’ve heat treated 22 caliber 2/6 alloy bullets. Over did the oven temp and time . They were so brittle they were breaking in the sizer. Some of them slumped from over heat on the cookie sheet. Tossed them all back in the pot so can’t say how they would have shot. They were breaking in the size die not from hardness but the stress cracks formed when they hit the water quench. Many were already in multiple pieces coming from the water.

Been making my 22’s from alloy blend of one 8 lb 2/6 ingot plus one lb of good Linotype. Air cooled. If I heat treated that I’d hold it to 420 degrees at no more than fifteen minutes.
Pretty sure the resulting bullets would fragment on impact with rabbit sized game. You can get little 22s to blow up and fragment while the same alloy in a 30 caliber would just act like a FMJ bullet.

Half WW half Lino makes nice 22s.

[stubshaft]

Thanks for your clarification of what you meant. The reason I questioned it was not meant as an attack on you, but because I have heat treated monotype in excess of 38bhn and did not experience the crystallization that you described.

[JIMinPHX]

23 BHN is about as hard as is usable.

I disagree. I've gone over 30 bnh with very good results on some top end .44mag loads.

[GabbyM]

I disagree. I've gone over 30 bnh with very good results on some top end .44mag loads.

yes but we are shooitng 22's in this thread.

I heat treat 2/6 alloy for my 243 and 270 boolits. However for reasons posted above I gave up on that for 22’s. no more material than a 22 bullet has in it it’s less trouble to just use the high price alloy up to straight linotype.

That batch of bullets I over heated. The phone rang. Was about 2,500 bullets on two cookie sheets. Had taken a while to cast those up. Those bullets would have shot just fine air cooled. With the Lyman #225646 I’m shooting now it helps a lot to use a rich alloy to get the thin nose groves filled out with no rejects. Not sure how hard a mix of 8lb 2/6 with 1lb 4/12 (lino) would be. It’s about 2.5%tin 7.5% antimony. IMHO that’s harder than you have to be to shoot in a 223.

[JIMinPHX]

I'm a little thin on understanding you logic as to why a .22 would not need to be as hard as a .44. Could you please try to explain that to me?

Thanks,
Jim

[felix]

Jim, Gabby's results are correct. These small boolits heat-treat on their own dropping from the mold into thin air. This is because they are especially hot from the mold (casting fast) and there is little mass to hold the heat when they are dropped. Typically, water is not needed for the faster-than-normal cooling required to harden a boolit. Real lino (no slush stage) will not heat treat anyway, water or not. Dirty up lino just a little, then all bets are off. An excessive antimony ratio will cause a fragmentation upon cooling too rapidly. ... felix

[JIMinPHX]

These small boolits heat-treat on their own dropping from the mold into thin air.

That's not what I'm seeing here. I cast some Bators last night. Some I water dropped. Others I air cooled. I just tested two of them. They came up around 21 & 13bnh respectively.

My alloy was similar to WW + 1% tin. Perhaps with Lino, it's different, but .22s cast from my alloy, with the pot around 800F certainly do seem to change hardness when water dropped. The ambient temperature was 57F.

[GabbyM]

Jim the only 22 bullets I made from WW + tin I also heat treated. How hard they were I can only guess.

My belief is if the bullet isn’t slumping upon firing it’s hard enough in a 22.
Doesn’t seam to be much issue with stripping the rifling as there are low forces needed to spin them up. Also the small diameter of the gas check makes it very durable. That surely is helping but one can only guess.

With a fat pistol bullet and even 30 caliber rifle when you heat treat you get hard on the outside with less to zero heat treat towards the center. Leaving you with a tough bullet. With 22’s they are going to get brittle all the way through. With 116 bullets per pound of alloy heat treating scrap metal gets to be a lot of work over just using foundry alloy.

Have to cast up some more Lyman #225646 pretty soon. Since I let a fellow talk me out of all I had cast up. I’ll heat treat a few at 420* for 15 minutes > water quench or maybe just try water dropping them and cast some up from straight Linotype air cooled. Take my loading kit to the range then see what happens. Run the air cooled bullets up until accuracy falls of then load the harder bullets over that powder charge to see if it helps or hurts. Try them all with a load that shoots well to check for smallest groups. That should take all day. I think all the difference will be is the hard bullets will fragment upon impact as a little 58 grain piece of lead that’s brittle can’t take all that energy hitting it. That could be useful though.

[felix]

Glad you measured them, Jim. I would have though they would be closer, like they MIGHT be around here with the 100 percent air humidity (dew conditions at night). Save the samples and see what the measurements are a week or two from now, please. ... felix

[camaro1st]

i have a 16" ss barrel carbine lenth, standard spring and buffer ar-15 with 200 +or- a few rounds through it. i am water dropping my bator cast boolits, with gas checks. I am getting good cycling with 21grs of imr4064. i started low and worked up on a load. manual cycling and checking for any signs of pressure problems then it was cycling on its own. no leading and 5rd group at 1.5" off hand@50yrds. Dont know how fast they are flying but i can't see them.

[JIMinPHX]

Camaro1st, do you have the old style Bator or the new one? What COAL are you loading to? What lead alloy are you using?

Thanks,
Jim