True Grit - 1874 Sharps, 1894 rifle & Colt Dragoon

[coopieclan]

I saw the new movie of "True Grit" this weekend. Wow do they love the study of antique guns in this film.

Also I had the D.V.D. of the 1969 True Grit with John Wayne so I watched it too.
I hadn't seen it since 1969.

John Wayne is a true American hero... He made that film with only 1/2 a lung

Both films mention the Colt Dragoon the young girl inherits from her father.
In a crucial moment the gun gets wet then mis-fires. Is it the original cap and ball?

She says how it is an "Old Fashioned Gun" and the other characters (Both films) Say how it is an old horse pistol.

In another scene The girl asks Rooster Cockburn "Why do you only load 5 chambers on your gun?"

The bad guy has a powder burn on his face and carries a Henry rifle. They say this over and over in both the old and new films.

Most of the guns are cartridge guns.

But LeBeouff the Texas Ranger (Glenn Campbell/Matt Damon) has a Sharps Carbine.

From what I saw they depict it as a percussion gun. but he never pulls out a ramrod.

Depending what Sharps carbine could this be a muzzle loader?

The Ranger seems to have tons of big rifle ammo in a belt around his waist.

The Duke does it better than Jeff Bridges when he says how he chased away a posse with his two Navy 6 shooters. I NOW know that is two .36 caliber Colt Wheel-guns... muzzle loaded or converted...Like mine is.

Every time John Wayne mentions a Boolit (Bullit) he calls it a "Ball"

Also the iconic '92 rifle that killed a million buffalo is well represented too.
I will have the chance to shoot a few rounds from a replica this spring... The bullets cost me $2.oo each! You can bet I'll be saving that brass.

I bet a few of you guys saw True Grit and noticed a few interesting gun facts too.

[Finster101]

If I remember correctly the Colt "Dragoons" were so named because they were carried in saddle holsters by mounted cavalry.

[northmn]

The Walker and the Dragoon were carried by cavalry and were true horse pistols. They had saddle holsters to carry them with. The Dragoons were improved Walkers in which they had a notch to hole the rammer bar and actually had reduced powder capacity as some Walkers blew. Sam Walker wanted them for the Rangers to fight the Mexicans in the Mexican War and got skewered by a Mexican Lancer himself. Their purpose was to give adequate power against that sort of enemy. The 1851 Colt was a true holster pistol carried on the person. I cannot imagine someone carrying a Walker or Dragoon as they weighed over 4 pounds each. Gus of Lonesome Dove and Jose Wales be Da----d. They were not a "fast draw pistol. The early sharps was a paper cartridge percussion rifle with a roll cap system similar to the old kids cap gun. The 92 Winchester was not a buffalo rifle as they were pretty well gone by then and a 44-40 would not be all that desirable for that purpose. buffalo were killed by a variety of guns most single shots. Although Wyatt Earp was said to ahve picked up a few dollars shooting buffalo with round ball out of a double shotgun.

DP

[excess650]

The Sharps was NEVER a MLer. They were always breechloaders, but used percussion ignition until the 50-70 was introduced in the late 1860s. Many Civil War era carbines and and some rifles were later converted to use the 50-70.

As for the Walkers and Dragoons, they were BIG and HEAVY and carried in holsters on the saddle. The Walker was reputedly the most powerful handgun (revolver) until the advent of the 357 Magnum in 1935!

The Colt SAA was introduced circa 1873.

The Henry was introduced in the late 1850s and used the 44 Henry Flat (rimfire). The 1866 Winchester was sort of an "improved" Henry in that it loaded from the side ala "Kings Patent". The 1873 Winchester would have been the improved 1866.

As for the Winchester, I didn't take notice as to whether it was a '92 or '94, but BOTH seem too late for time period of the movie, IMO. They mention the "Indian Territories" and to me that means Oklahoma. It is true that OK didn't become a state until 1907, but it seemd like the movie was 1870s or 1880s.

Sharps made the west safe for Winchester! LOL! The bison were decimated by the time Winchester marketed the 1885 "highwall", and prior to the 1886 lever action. True, they had the large frame 1876, but more bison were killed with Sharps and Rollingblocks than anything else. Sharps was out of business by 1882.

[northmn]

The Sharps used paper cartridges loaded from the breech. The falling block of the Sharps cut the paper, in theory at least. The early Sharps loose powder breech loaders were not really all that powerful and were known to spit in the face. The 5 chambers loaded in a Colt was to protect the shooter if it was dropped from accidental discharge. The famous load one skip one load four and cock and release was common.

DP

[405]

Most assuredly Rooster's large loop trapper's carbine in the 1st True Grit is a Win 92 in 44-40. Haven't seen the current version. They also, were most assuredly not a buffalo gun..... but given the nature of the character of Rooster, if he mentioned it, it would fit perfectly.

pic is of earlier John Wayne movie Win 92 large loop. The Duke's True Grit carbine is almost identical to this one but with a shorter "trapper's" length barrel.

[DIRT Farmer]

My 1859 Sharps holds about 100 grains of ffg loaded loose and a 500 grn .54 bullet. paper cartridge holds appx 85 grns of ffg. I would guess it would shoot through a buffer. I know you don't have to open the action to see if it went off with the loose powder load.It does have some gas leakage, but it goes stright up as far as I can tell. I have never felt any spatter.

[cwskirmisher]

Most assuredly Rooster's large loop trapper's carbine in the 1st True Grit is a Win 92 in 44-40. Haven't seen the current version. They also, were most assuredly not a buffalo gun..... but given the nature of the character of Rooster, if he mentioned it, it would fit perfectly.

pic is of earlier John Wayne movie Win 92 large loop. The Duke's True Grit carbine is almost identical to this one but with a shorter "trapper's" length barrel.

In the current movie, Roosters SRC is viewed from the bottom as he holds it up in one scene, and one can clearly see the brass carrier - it is a '73 Winchester (at least it is in that scene).

[Multigunner]

The .36 Colt Navy revolver was often converted to fire cartridges.

A Magazine spread I ran across back in the late 80's or early 90's pitted the late 10th and early 20th century military handguns against each other in a shooting match.

A cartridge collector donated some original US Navy ammo made for the converted .36.
The Converted Colt Navy beat out all the other handguns tested for accuracy. The century old ammo performed perfectly with no misfires.

A few Sharps rifles were converted to muzzle loaders by the Confederacy. These Sharps rifles had been smuggled to abolitionist and seized when found. The Breech blocks of those rifles had been removed and were to be shipped separately, so the Confederates were not able to use them as breech loaders.
The Converted Sharps actually doesn't look much like had looked before conversion.

Burst cylinders were a problem for the Colt Walker revolvers, and this resulted in Colt making efforts to find the best available steel for his large caliber pistols.
The Colt 1860 was made of "Colts Silver Spring Steel" which he had first obtained for the manufacture of springs for his earlier designs.
A Controlled Carbon Process Steel, Silver spring steel was more elastic and parts made from it were unlikely to have hidden defects that could show up later on.
The added strength of this steel allowed Colt to pare down the weight of the 1860 Calvary revolver.

Most percussion Colts had small pins between each chamber, and a slot in the hammer nose in which the pin fitted when the hammer was lowered halfway between the nipples of the cylinder. Five beans in the wheel was un necessary for un modified Colt Navy revolvers. The cartridge conversions, and later cartridge model Colts, would be safer with hammer down on an empty chamber.

PS
Carbines of various types were used for shooting bison on the run from horseback. A skilled rider could plant one in the spine to anchor the beast, or more often deliver a wound that killed the animal slowly. Hunters could then follow the herd and wait till the wounded animals just keeled over.
Indians prefered a cut down smoothbore musket for this sort of work. They carried extra musket balls in their mouth and simply spit them down the bore after pouring in an unmeasured charge of powder. Those that still used flintlocks wallowed out the touch hole so shaking the musket caused powder from the main charge to fill the pan.

The Buffalo Rifles were a great improvement over those primitive methods.

[StrawHat]

...Sharps made the west safe for Winchester! LOL! ...

And the Springfield Trapdoor made it safe for the Sharps!!

[bob208]

the sharps was way before the trapdoor. the cal. used them in the paper cartage form in the was in the early 60's then in the .50-70 cartage conversion of 66. the trapdoor did not come out till the late 60's. then the sharps were sold off a surplus. which gets us to the fact that texas bought them and issused them to the rangers.

[Finster101]

It sure looks like that ranger is wearing Glen Campbell's hat and coat.

[DeanWinchester]

I hate to be the stick in mud, but I won't be watching it. I hate remakes, and I really hate remakes of movies that got it right the first time.
I like the actors cast in the remake, but they wasted their time. They don't have it.
It would be about like making a remake of Silence of the Lambs. NO ONE has what Anthony Hopkins has. So too is it with the Duke.
Another example is the A-Team. The remake is a disgusting turd of a movie. Hats off to MR. T for boycotting it. The original show had NO profanity, in the course of thousands of rounds, people rarely got hurt, never killed, and there was usually a moral for the younger viewers.
Like I said I WON'T watch the new False Grit movie but I am curious, how many curse words beyond "Fill your hands you son of a bitch" is there? Wouldn't surprise me if there was a bare boob or two.

Okay I am done griping.






Isaiah 5:20 - Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter and make horrible remakes of movies.

[Jim]

Well, if Dean's gonna be the stick, I guess I'm the mud. The movie was suggested to me by several people that know I'm an 1800s buff. I politely thanked my friends for their suggestion to see it and let it go at that.
As far as I'm concerned, "Mr. Bridges" wouldn't make a pimple on the Duke's backside. That's about like asking Bruce Willis to do a remake of Terminator.
Horse feathers.

[bob208]

i will see it when netflex has it .

[Geraldo]

The book begins in 1928, when Mattie is old and recalls the story. I don't think there is a timeline given other than that the story occurred when she was 14. I'd guess circa 1880.

One of my favorite westerns is "Monte Walsh", which originally starred Lee Marvin and was remade with Tom Selleck. Both versions are excellent, and I really can't say which I like more.

While I'm a big Duke fan, and have grown to like his version of "True Grit", I'm fairly certain I'll like the Bridges version as well.

It's OK to like them both.

[northmn]

They have improved their inclusion of a larger variety of firearms in movies now that the replicas can be had. Originally everyone in Westerns carried 94 or 92 Winchesters and 73 Colts. One movie called the "Man from the Alamo" showed him carrying that combination. had they had Winchester repeaters and Colts at the Alamo things may have been a little different. I think they really are just throwing in that variety just for effect.

DP

[excess650]

I watched the original a couple of weeks ago and saw the new movie this afternoon. Mattie had the Dragoon, Rooster had a Colt SAA and a '73 rifle (I thgink). LeBoef(?) was carrying a Sharps carbine with ring and bar, but appeared to be 45-2.1" or 2.4" and NOT a 50-70. Ned Pepper had a '66 Winchester and an 1875 Remington revolver. Chaney had the brass framed Henry.

I generally don't like remakes either, and may well have seen this one when it was first out, BUT, Jeff Bridges did a better job than John Wayne, IMO. Robert Duvall played Ned Pepper in the first movie, and he's a pretty tough act to follow. While I'm not a Matt Damon fan, he did at least as well as Glenn Cambell playing LeBoef. This is a great remake and definitely worth seeing.

<flame suit one>

[Jim]

Anybody can do a better job than Glen Campbell. but to say Bridges did a better job than the Duke.........................................
THAT'S HERESY!

[10 ga]

Some people just don't get it. The current "True Grit" is not a remake of the earlier movie of the same name. The current edition is closer to the actual novel and was an altogether new screenplay. Had a birthday just after the new movie was released and seeing it with the family was my "birthday present" by my request. We had rented the old movie first and watched it. Well my daughters and wife arn't western fans or JW fans for sure and after seeing both movies we ALL agreed the new movie was better. Better acting, better dialog, more accurate in location and scenery, more accurate in clothing and garments, better narration on and on. Yeah, I'm 61 now and I like my westerns! It's sorta like me and my Browning A-5, good gun and I like it even love it, but, my new Benelli is better and prettier too. Oh yeah, Hattie as Mattie is just way better than Kim was. 10 ga