I'm done casting slugs

[Frosty Boolit]

Been using the lyman 525 sabot and sometimes groups are good and sometimes they are bad. I feel I have put in too much effort and money to be where I am at so I'm done with these and going with the copper solid for deer in the rifled barrel. could still use the others I have already casted for fun in my smoothbore because they were always better in that one anyway.

[turbo1889]

Guys who want something similar to "sabot slugs" usually eventually reach the conclusion you have. There just aren’t the proper components available to reloaders to duplicate factory sabot ammo with any ease.

Full bore diameter solids is where casting your own really excels, but unfortunately a lot of people have velocity fever and need to take a cold shower before they even think about trying to roll their own.

The only way I have been able to build high velocity "roll your own" loads that match or exceed factory sabot loads is to build my own sabots completely from scratch from paper based materials. It is very time consuming, intensive detail work far beyond what the average person is willing to put in.

Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the Lyman 525gr. Wad-Slug design. Those who are trying to duplicate or exceed factory foster slug loads with that design are usually quite satisfied with a little bit of load development and the application of a few notable tricks of the trade. The design is indeed capable of exceeding factory foster slug loads performance and thus with a little work they end up getting better performance then the factory (foster) slug loads they are using as a bench mark and as a result are usually quite satisfied. It is not, however, a true sabot slug and trying to make it perform like one will usually only lead to frustration. That is partially why I personally refuse to call it a sabot slug and instead refer to it as a "Wad-Slug".

And of course, like all things, it is also a matter of what your gun(s) like. I've got one smooth bore gun that eats a particular Lyman 525 load like candy and will put them all into a deer chest cavity size kill zone pattern at 75 yards all day long. And I've got a rifled bore slug gun that absolutely hates them and sprays them all over the place but will practically put 0.735" RB slug loads through the same hole at that same 75 yard distance. Then I've got another rifled bore gun that loves a different Lyman 525 load and will put that load in a 4" group out to 100 yards and continues to hold fairly tight beyond.

I should note that I have never been able to build a wad-slug load (not just Lyman 525, many other wad slug designs as well) that was able to group at or below 2" at 100 yards from any gun. Normally a good wad-slug load that the gun likes will tighten up at twice that (4" group) and I have been able to occasionally obtain groups in the 3" zone with wad-slugs but I have never been able to tighten them up to 2" or smaller. Not with a wad-slug load. With full bore solids, yes the 3" barrier can be broken and you can get down to 2" groups but I have not found that it is possible with wad-slug loads.

Put that kind of performance and numbers head to head with a factory foster slug load and a good wad-slug load that has been properly loaded and tuned to ones gun holds its own real well and can kick factory load rear especially when you consider the added benefit of the elimination of leading of the bore that the wad-slug design offers. But put it up against a factory sabot load and it just can’t compete. It’s like putting a medium weight class boxer in the ring with a heavy weight champion, its just not a fair fight.

[Frosty Boolit]

Turbo, I have read many of your posts on SGW and trying different things. This post really hits the nail ont the head. Velocity is not what I was looking for, in fact I went from Blue Dot to Herco to reduce velocity. I don't have a crono but the book loading says that it should be about 1275 fps. I killed a deer with it and it went in one side and out the other at about 30 yards. My biggest problem is that just like you said, I have a rifled barrel and these slugs only perform at a foster slug level as far accuracy is concerned. Really though, my smoothbore barrel does better with fosters than the rifled does with lyman 525. tried coppersolids I had laying around and they shot the tightest group (did'nt measure, 2 touching and the 3rd close by) i have ever shot out of a shotgun, thereby ruling out the shooter or the gun.

And you are right, I really don't want to makje custom paper sabots.

anyway, one thing is for sure if you want to lay the smack down a 525 at any velocity above 1000 will sure hit hard.

[500bfrman]

have you guys tried these http://www.ballisticproducts.com/pro...?number=322RSS

[turbo1889]

I have not tried them myself yet, but the reports from those who have are not good. Just look at the numbers on the bottom of the link you linked too. An outside sabot diameter of 0.712" is a little small for a 0.727" to 0.730" barrel diameter in the grooves isn’t it? I did a lot of work with their predecessor the "grey" sabots and came to the ultimate conclusion that they were one notch above a junk rating. Word on the wind is that those old grey ones were better then the new ones. As I said, haven’t tried them myself yet so I can't say for sure but looks like another flop. The sabots from CCS (Colet Cup Sabots, Inc) do indeed work and work correctly but they are a $1 each plus shipping for just the sabot so you end up at about $2 or more a shell by the time you get them loaded at which point you’re not much cheaper then just buying factory.

I think the BPI sabots might have had a chance at being good if they would have made them with an outside diameter of at least 0.730” if not a couple thou. more. But they just don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept of a diameter large enough to fit the barrel that us cast boolit shooters are so familiar with. Their old grey sabots had the same problem along with a dumb flimsy cushion section that would result in the sabots blowing unless you cut it out and put a stack of hard cards in its place.

All BPI had to do was take a couple dozen different proven performance factory sabot loads and cut them open and examine the sabots the factory boys use and just make one of their own that was just kind of an averaging of what they found inside the factory loads and they would have hit the nail on the head and they would have worked just fine and sold like hot-cakes. But oh no, they had to go try and reinvent the wheel from scratch and build their sabot with dimensions and construction techniques that aren’t even close to what has been already proven to work and work well. Guess they are just those kind of people that have to learn all their lessons the hard way.

Heck, the first time I tried making my own sabots completely from scratch out of rolled paper tubes the first thing I did was disect a Remington copper sabot and use that as a model and then work from there. Seems I've got more brains in regard to such things then the smarty pants ballistic experts working for BPI.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
I am probably getting lazy as the years go by but I can see no reason to get beyond Rb anymore. But I hunt river bottoms and the farthest I have ever popped a deer was 33 yards. Most the corn crunchers I have dragged out were under 20 yards.
From what I have seen, done and read there is no deer or probably any critter on our side of the world that will survive for very long a well placed .685 RB at 1500 fps. Even at 1300 fps these RB´s are mostly unstopable. Recoil is very easy even on my 157 pound body.
But how I would like to find a person willing to rifle a 12 Bore double to about 1-80 or slower twist. I think that would really make an interesting tool.

[turbo1889]

I absolutely agree, Missionary, about a RB slug load in a 12ga. shotgun; either a 68-cal ball inside a shot wad or a 73-cal naked and lubed. But for the open country boys who are lucky to sneak up within a hundred yards and who are limited to slug guns a true sabot load definitely has its advantages and since I'm pretty much addicted to trying to figure out how to reload every potential shotgun slug load conceivable and maximize its performance even though I don't really need sabot loads (especially since I can build full bore 20ga. loads for my bull barrel rifled NEF-USH that are chest cavity kill zone accurate out to 200 yards and beyond) I still fiddle with them.

As far as RB slugs go in rifled barrels; you are absolutely correct about the benefits of a slow twist barrel for such loads. I agree we need to find someone willing to build them for us and for a reasonable price.

[shotman]

I dont load the sabots in a shotgun but do in a rifle. Some things I have found and may apply to shot guns. If you try to load a 30cal sabot that has a 22cal bullet and load it down to near sub sonic speeds it is lucky to hit a car at 100yds. why? dont know never found a fired one
I have a rem 870rifled in 12ga shooting RB cast at.728 will shoot as good as I can. Its a very easy fast load and at 30gr bluedot is not a tear jerker. I just found another box of the win special wads. I can easy load one in 30sec with a Lee loader

[BAGTIC]

I dont load the sabots in a shotgun but do in a rifle. Some things I have found and may apply to shot guns. If you try to load a 30cal sabot that has a 22cal bullet and load it down to near sub sonic speeds it is lucky to hit a car at 100yds. why? dont know never found a fired one
I have a rem 870rifled in 12ga shooting RB cast at.728 will shoot as good as I can. Its a very easy fast load and at 30gr bluedot is not a tear jerker. I just found another box of the win special wads. I can easy load one in 30sec with a Lee loader

That is the same load I use in a rifled Remington 1100 but my ball measures .735. Very accurate and mild shooting load that gives good penetration. Very reliable and uniform functioning in the 1100 selfloader.

[mini14]

what does 30gr bluedot = in hs6? Or are they to different to equate to one another.

[klcarroll]

I have to agree with the comments made by Missionary, Turbo1889, and Shotman:

I have found it easy to get solid, reliable performance from a Round Ball load. …..With its acceptable “Hunting Accuracy”, its good penetration with CONSISTENT terminal ballistics, and simple loading procedures, why would anyone except for the boys who REALLY need 100 yard performance fiddle around with temperamental slug designs??

Kent

[Matt3357]

I've got one for you Turbo. I posted this over on SGW and...lets just say I won't be going back after how I was treated for bringing up an idea.

I am one of the guys you describe that need at least a 100 yard gun and just hate paying $13 bucks a box for 20 gauge accutips. They have shot less than 2" every group I have shot at 100 yards (which has only been 3 groups since I shoot a box before deer season to verify my scope is still accurate for the passed two years) . I would really like to make my own and get to know my slug gun better. So I got to thinking about how I could load a .45 caliber in a sabot and basically recreate the accutip (wishful thinking I know). Another thing I really like about the Accutips is the light recoil.

So my idea is to take a 280gr 45 cal bullet, put it in a 54 to 45 cal muzzleloader sabot and then put this in an unslit steel shot wad from Ballistic products that is just under .54 on the inside. Cut the wad to length and slit accordingly. I ordered the components the other day to see how the fit together.

One thing that was brought to my attention was that with such a drastic reduction in load it could result in bloopers which would lead to potentially dangerous load development. Maybe with your experience you can glean some information my way. Please don't say it's off limits or I'll pull my hair out. I just want to discuss the possibilities.

Thanks Turbo,
Matt

[onondaga]

I am not over being completely impressed with the easy track I had getting started and getting great accuracy with my own cast 12 ga. Lee Slugs 3 years ago. My Winchester 1300 Smoothbore slug gun with open sights groups 1.25 inches at 50 yards consistently with the second load I tried: Win AA hulls, 1 oz Lee slug in a 7/8 oz. Claybuster Wad with no spacer, 38.0 gr. Accurate #5 scale measured. My previous load wasn't as accurate and used a larger capacity wad with a spacer under the slug but the same charge. That first load grouped 3.5 inches at 50 yards.

Gary