Suitability of cast bullets for self defense

[Icorps1970]

Other than 22rf I've never had a problem with factory ammunition. I sorted through the defensive factory stuff and found out what my gun likes.

Once the right load is found its generally very accurate and I have never had a factory round produce a misfire.
I rotate my SD stuff and shoot off the old since body heat or contamination can cause trouble. Once shot off the case gets loaded for practice ammo.
Since digital scales I weight all my handloads even (especially?) large batches done on the Dillon progressive.

Dan

[docmagnum357]

Guys, I am a concealed carry instructor in North Carolina. A few things you really should remember. First, Maas Ayoob, is a writer. And an expert witness. Get him to show you a case wher using home made ammo sent anyone to jail. There Ain't one. Second, Harold Fish was eventually Exonorated. After about a million or more being spent. He used factory ammo. The real problem was the time line that didn't add up, and the fact that the shootee was unarmed. It's a wonder he got out of it. I would have done the same thing. Did you get that? I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING. Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

Shooting someone will change your life forever. Deal with it before you ever buy a gun for self defense. And " I' d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six." is a bunch of poo. Repeat that to yourself twenty times a night when you can't sleep, twenty years later.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't matter if deadly force is applied with a 477 nitro express, or a steak knife, it is deadly force, and it is either justified, or it is not. BUT, remember the Fish case. Juries are made up of people who have been sitting around watching Oprah and DR. Phil for way longer than it takes to turn a human brain to oatmeal. Everybody with good sense is smart enough to get out of jury duty. Attorneys, both defense and prosecution, are looking for a juror that can be led around by the nose. They do not want anyone with even a normal amount of common sense. Also, unless your state has the Florida, Texas, and apparently Ohio provision protecting a legitimate defensive shooter, any one can sue anyone for anything. It costs , what, a dollar or three to buy a box of buckshot, and get ready for a bank robbery? It doesn't cost that much to sue someone, if the lawyer works on a percentage. What do they, or the person you shot, or their family have to lose. If they will threaten your life, they will certainly lie.Especially if an unscrupulous attorney approaches the family, and puts the idea in their head.

I carry Lyman devastators in my .44 magnum for self defense. Loaded to about 1000 fps. Same load I deer hunt with. I cary Winchester Ranger sxt in my 45. I worry more about the " black Talon " association there than I do about handloads. I would get over the equiptment centered thinking, and make sure I knew the law backward and forward in my state. That being said, there are a lot of Terrible ccw instructors. They don't know anything. I study law, and cases, both regular and appelate in my state and other states. I probably know more CASE law than any attorney you could hire. Why? You are more likely to have a coke machine turn over and kill you, than you are to be shot by a licensed ccw permit holder. No lawyer could ever hope to feed his family on those slim pickings. Second, I OWE my students my BEST. If they can't get a straight answer from a lawyer, who are they going to get a staright answer from? I feel like it is kinda my business to tell them what COULD happen. What PROBABLY will happen, and what has already happened. Let them wotk out the percentages.

Barry Kleck tells us thet 2-3 million timesa a year, someone just having a handgun stops a violent encounter, armed robbery, felonius assult, rape, or murder. Since there are only about 1500 justifiable shootings by ccw holders in any given year, this tells us a lot. Most of you won't shoot anyway.. Lt Colonel Dave Grossman says probably only about three percent of us actually have it in us to kill another human being. Half of them are criminals, a good many of the rest are Law enforcement and military. The odds of you ever getting the "oportunity", if you are a three percenter, or " being forced to kill some one" if you are a 97 percenter, is less than being struck by lightning. Doesn't reall much matter if you even have a real gun or not, most of the time. Doesn't matter if you are armed with a .22 or a 44 mag, 99% of the time. if you are a 97% type, you aren't going to be able to line upo the sights and pull the trigger. If you are a 3% type, who has basically been looking for an excuse to shoot somebody all your life, a 22 will probably make it easier. won't hurt your ears so much, and it will be easier to get rapid repeat head shots with.

Patton was a stone killer. He always was the one to put down polo ponies and calvary horses with broken legs. He hunted almost from the time he could walk. Had no problems putting down his own dogs when they were old, sick, or no longer of any use to him. He once shot a mexican bandito in a cantina, and brought him back to camp strapped across the hood of a car, like a dead deer. Askins was a stone killer. He never had a problem doing away with a "bad man".

I would worry a lot more about the mental aspect than equipment. Alvin York was a good shot, but the main thing is he was a stonme cold killer. After the war, he was Church Of God Pastor. His moral compass was very clear to hom. It was no sin to kill Germans in war. SO he did. That moral compass, and the inatet drive to kill are more important than any other consideration. Roosevelt said " Those men who have experienced joy in battle know wat it is when the wolf rises in the heart." If you do not experience joy in battle, take up golf, and hit bad people with a stick. They and you will be much happier. If, you are a three percenter, I pray you never meet a "bad man" in a dark alley. I will hardly matter whether you were even armed or not, much less what you are armed with.

[BAGTIC]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

I carry Speer Gold Dot short barrel ammo in my .357.

On the other hand the jury might think you were an innocuous hobbyist using some marginally lethal homemade bullets to save a few bucks.

On the other hand the guy using the storeboughts went out and purchased sophisticated bullets specially designed to enhance lethality proving he bought them for the purpose of killing someone. No one spends that kind of money on bullets intended for casual plinking.

[BAGTIC]

Doc speaks words of wisdom.

Ignore the BS from the media stars and wannabees.

If a man NEEDS killing he needs killing with whatever is at hand.

If a man doesn't NEED killing it doesn't matter what he is killed with.

[BAGTIC]

A bullet does not need to expand especially bullets with large meplats moving at fairly high velocities. The hydrodynamic spray produced by the meplat will cut an enlarged hole much larger than the diameter of the bullet itself.

[Char-Gar]

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject at hand;

1. A good 44 or 45 cast bullet with a large meplat will do just fine for anti-personal use. If you don't walk away the winner, it will be due to factor's other than the bullet.

2. This factory ammo for legal purposes is total bunk and has been discredited over and over again, but like Freddy Kruger refuses to stay dead.

3. Doc says it as straight and true as it can be said.

For the record, I am a retired lawyer (among other things), did practice criminal law and was also a prosecutor for a time. I still teach Criminal Law and other subjects in the Legal Studies program at our local University. I am also a retired United Methodist Pastor.

[stainless1911]

If you shoot them with a .45, you wanted a big hole they cant climb out of. If you shoot them with a .380, you wanted to watch them bleed out for f*cking with you. If you shoot them with a JHP, you wanted to turn their insides into goo. If you shoot them with handloads, you must be studying to kill.

The best thing to do after a shoot is to SHUT UP! Let the lawyers do the talking, neither you or the perp should be saying anything.

At least here in Michigan, we have castle doctrine. And if you claim self defense, the burden is on the prosecution to prove that it wasn't.

[sergeant69]

If you want to use factory ammo, fine, go ahead. I just question the realities and what people think will really happen. I know that what will happen is unending lawsuits no matter what the circumstances, even if you do slide on the criminal end of it.

And trust ME, after 22 years as a cop I thought about the jury ALL THE TIME! The only reason several people are walking the earth today is because I didn't want to go through the hell of what a shooting entailed.

he's absolutely right. after 24 years as a cop/probation/parole and now w/ corrections, the ONLY reason some richard craniums are still alive is because of the aftermath involved. as a supervisor in the largest prson in texas i assure you we get cussed out and threatened on a daily basis because 4-6 hours of paperwork isn't worth dealing w/it. and it gets worse everyday. imagine what a shooting would entail! BUT.....if its gotta be done its gotta be done. hopefully the LAST thing in the back of ur mind while defending ur family/self is the aftermath. lets hope someday attitudes change and one would get an "atta boy" rather than a "ur screwed" after doing the right thing.

[Piedmont]

Alvin York was a good shot, but the main thing is he was a stonme cold killer. After the war, he was Church Of God Pastor. His moral compass was very clear to hom. It was no sin to kill Germans in war. SO he did.

I think you are completely wrong about Alvin York. There used to be his diary floating around on the internet. I lost it to a computer death but read it several years ago. He was a pious man who said God told him he wouldn't die in the war and in regards to his action in the war stated that his situation was unsurvivable but God protected him. You are making him out to be some 20th century ******, which is a disservice to him and his memory.

[sergeant69]

I think you are completely wrong about Alvin York. There used to be his diary floating around on the internet. I lost it to a computer death but read it several years ago. He was a pious man who said God told him he wouldn't die in the war and in regards to his action in the war stated that his situation was unsurvivable but God protected him. You are making him out to be some 20th century ******, which is a disservice to him and his memory.

i don't think he was a "stone cold killer" either. i just think he was willing to kill when he had to. big diff. in my opinion.

[gray wolf]

Wow to many opinions on this one.
I guess we all have to live with ourselves and what we do or don't do .
Also how we do it. If I looked hard in the mirror and decided I could not defend my life
at the expense of another, I would not carry a pistol.
I would also not load mouse loads for the fear of over penatration, to many things could go wrong. There are some good factory rounds for the folks that live in crowded conditions
or may have a loved one in the next room. It may also require a different mind set about defending your home.
A gun fight is not like a baseball game/win a few loose a few.
There are some events YOU MUST WIN. again how you do it is up to you.
I also agree with the fact that you better know your states laws for deadly force.
Taking a human life is not like shooting a Deer, some can get over it and some can't.
Lets hope we don't have to find out, but make sure it's the BG that gets carried out.
I have not commented on the reload/handload thing.
I think 5 pages about say's it all.

[BAGTIC]

Anyone who thinks he can predict or anticipate the decision of a trial jury is delusional. I have set on seven juries in my lifetime and I can tell you that they are illogical, inconsistent, biased, prejudiced, self contradictory, irrational. Most have their minds made up half way through the trial. Once they have declared a position they would out of stubborn pride risk hell itself before changing their vote. A fair number will blatantly lie to the judge and attorneys during the voire dir.

Worst of all most jurors see themselves as avenging angels. They believe juries exist to punish the guilty. Many believe that it is more imporatant that someone, anyone, be convicted and the case closed than it is that the innocent be set free. I have heard many jurors state that if we don't convict the defendant of something the trial will all be a waste of time and taxpayers money. In two such situations I was responsible for hanging the jury.

[sqlbullet]

i don't think he was a "stone cold killer" either. i just think he was willing to kill when he had to. big diff. in my opinion.

I think Doc means something different by stone cold killer than you do.

I think Doc (and myself) interpret that phrase to mean someone who won't have second thoughts or beat themselves up over killing when killing was the remaining choice.

Lots of people, regardless of how 'right' they think they were, will never forgive themselves for taking a human life. There are some who do not suffer these emotional trials.

I don't interpret Doc's comments to mean that York was a 20th century rambo, or a sociopath who was a criminal killer. I think the same journals that showed him to be a pious man would show he felt he was completely justified in the lives he took.

[sergeant69]

i my business i deal with people that have a mindset whereas stepping on a bug or killing a human evokes the same response-none. others see it as away to gain status among their peers. neither have any remorse at all. to me thats a stone cold killer. i think York did what he had to do and regretted having to do it. thats a soldier doing his job, not a "killer". i kinda think we're on the same page here.

[Bullshop]

I read a book about him that said at first he was an conscientious objector. Afterword he had a vision or something like that and was convinced his service and actions would save lives so he went. You know the rest of the story.

[thx997303]

Anyone who thinks he can predict or anticipate the decision of a trial jury is delusional. I have set on seven juries in my lifetime and I can tell you that they are illogical, inconsistent, biased, prejudiced, self contradictory, irrational. Most have their minds made up half way through the trial. Once they have declared a position they would out of stubborn pride risk hell itself before changing their vote. A fair number will blatantly lie to the judge and attorneys during the voire dir.

Worst of all most jurors see themselves as avenging angels. They believe juries exist to punish the guilty. Many believe that it is more imporatant that someone, anyone, be convicted and the case closed than it is that the innocent be set free. I have heard many jurors state that if we don't convict the defendant of something the trial will all be a waste of time and taxpayers money. In two such situations I was responsible for hanging the jury.

Pretty small sample you're working with there bud.

[Tokarev]

I've been assaulted by some bad ass guys in the streets.
Before being assaulted I thought that one only thinks how to survive.
But the split second standing in front of the assailant, being pulled by the jacket into a car, I was thinking that if I hit the guy in the head, I could kill him the way he was standing (I break boards with a jab). So for that split seconds a whole series of thoughts occurred in my mind. The next he turns his side towards me and I start thinking that if I kicked his knee, he would be injured for life and never walk again. There is no single standard of how people behave in the situations or what they think, cause the people are different. I don't know how jury can decide someone's fate - I would not.

[Merlin43]

I'm old.
I'm not, however, defenseless.
Formerly a Tae Kwan Do master, currently a decent pistolero.
Factory is ok.
Handload is ok.
The object is to (1) have a weapon you are competent with, (2) *really* be competent, (3) UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT your responsibility for your own action and (4) Act to STOP THE THREAT.
I have defended myself and my family, at close range, more than once. I happen to believe that hand-loads are better. I can prove they are effective, but make no claims as to what anybody else's lawyer will do if anybody else has to defend them.

Tokarev: - if you are threatened, you have a right to defend yourself as needed, "sufficient" force - even if Canada sucks as related to defense law.

[NVScouter]

Umm......WOW really over thinking this.

If you are involved in a shooting go over the shoot not the gear. This is to include the weapon, lights, ammo, sights, etc.

Be brief, honest, to the point, and no speculations.

If the gear comes up just say: "Your Honor I chose to have the most reliable self defense weapon, and I used it when the situation forced me to."

The gear will not be a big deal in a criminal court but a civil case I could see some ambulance chaser trying it.

[XWrench3]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

i guess that would depend on where you lived, and how anti-gun your local prosecutor is. around here, i have been told by several law enforcement officers that if it is a good shoot, it will not matter if you shot them with a bb gun, or a .458 winchester magnum. as for 45 cast bullets, and their expansion or not, i would not worry about that either. anyone getting shot with a 45 acp loaded properly is going to have a real hard time shrugging that off. the 45 was DESIGNED as a man stopper, with full metal jacketed rounds. you would be hard pressed to find any of those rounds that expand in human tissue. and if you are shooting a 45 l.c. or larger, that is even more power. just pray that you never HAVE to shoot another living human being!