Freedom arms .357

[dubber123]

You might could buy a reamer from Brownells and get most of your money back if you resell it.

I'll have to look and see if they sell a .359" throating reamer. .358" seems to be the common one.

[Whitworth]

I got to check the fat boolit dummy rounds, and they chambered just fine, so I now have it on layaway. If I can figure out a good way to open the throats the .001" without sending it away I will. I am pretty confident it's a relatively easy fix.

dubber, Jack Huntington has done a boatload of work for me and I have three custom revolvers he built and I highly recommend you go that route. He is reasonably priced, fast, and his work is second to none.

[Bass Ackward]

Thanks for the information. I finally got ahold of Huntingtons, and he will open the throats to whatever I want for $65. He did strongly suggest I only open them to GROOVE size, even after telling him I would be shooting only cast. What say you guys? I have always been led to believe .001+" over bore is best. He does have a good rep, so maybe he's right?

Forget your size question for a moment. If you use a rotating tool, you are going to leave tool marks perpendicular to bullet travel that are at least .0005 deep and quite possibly more that will be removed by shooting. Added, that's .002 for a diameter.

Now, if you apply that to your question, you will end up with throats that will be a minimum of .359 in a few hundred rounds and probably larger depending on a whole host of factors.

All of this is perfect because as the bore cleans up, it will follow those measurements. he told you right.

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
this is Uwe from Germany.
Few weeks ago I have bought an early (Serialnumber 0195) used FA Mod. 353 in 357 Magnum Caliber (bigger frame with 5 chambers).
Now I am a little bit confused because of the Chamber troats disscussion. I wanted to reload my ammunition with a lead boolit so what would you suggest?
357 or 358 Diameter? I have no idea what is the exact diameter of the chamber troats or nor the barrel on my FA (how should I measure?)
Best regards
uwe

[Dale53]

The easiest way to measure the cylinder throats is to remove the cylinder from the revolver. Support the cylinder on a clean block of wood. Drive a slightly larger pure lead ball or slug through each cylinder carefully catching in on a soft cloth to avoid damaging it. You must CAREFULLY measure it with a quality micrometer. You HAVE to be careful not to compress the soft lead with the micrometer. Use your sense of touch carefully with the micrometer.

Record all settings. I venture to say, all throats in a FA will measure the same. Then size your bullets the same size as the throats. I size a bullet at .358" if the throat is .358". If it is .356", then I size .356"...

I shoot a variety of calibers in my revolvers from .32 to .454 Casull. My favorites are .32 S&W Long, .44 Special, and .45 ACP but only by a slim margine over .38/.357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt.

If a revolver will not do 1" or better at 25 yards (off a rest), I am NOT interested. That is my standard. My revolvers all do that with my home cast bullets (I shoot practically nothing else). I get NO leading and excellent accuracy. Follow these forum pages, and you too can do it.

FWIW
Dale53

[MakeMineA10mm]

Welcome Uwe! Glad to have you here!!

Dale answered your questions; I just wanted to say Hi and welcome!

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
after a few months of testing I gave up with lead. I used very accurate lead bullets from WM Bullets (Germany with green grease) in 357 (175 grains, TC) with 7 grains N340 powder and the Freedom Arms Revolver M 353 very fast became leaded in the chamber troats of the cylinder. Now I use 180 grains bullets coated with cooper from H & N /Germany).
Best regards
uwe from Germany

[cbrick]

Sorry to hear that,

The ONLY ways I have ever caused leading in a Freedom Arms cylinder is by using a bullet too short for the front driving band to be inside the throat when the round is loaded or . . . By using a bullet such as SAECO #399 that is a two diameter bullet and has a front driving band several thousands smaller than throat diameter, there is no way to size this bullet to fit the throats, the smaller front band allows the loaded round to lay at a slight angle in the chamber and then the middle band hits the edge of the throat as it enters and shaves lead.

If the bullet has to find and then jump into the throat because the front driving when chambered was too short to reach the throat it will shave lead and leave it in the throats. My most recent experience with this was with a S&W 624 44 Spl but the principal is the same regardless of which revolver. The cure was very simple, a longer bullet where the front driving band was already in the throats (and a mild snug fit) when the firing pin hit the primer. The more over throat diameter your bullets are sized in this condition the more cylinder leading you will get, right up to and including spitting it out on the front of the forcing cone. Keep shooting and the leading will migrate out to the barrel frame past the forcing cone and lead you to believe a B/F constriction is the problem. That's what I first thought with the Smith but it wasn't a barrel frame constriction, a longer bullet (sized the same) solved the problem.

Rick

[44man]

Sorry to hear that,

The ONLY ways I have ever caused leading in a Freedom Arms cylinder is by using a bullet too short for the front driving band to be inside the throat when the round is loaded or . . . By using a bullet such as SAECO #399 that is a two diameter bullet and has a front driving band several thousands smaller than throat diameter, there is no way to size this bullet to fit the throats, the smaller front band allows the loaded round to lay at a slight angle in the chamber and then the middle band hits the edge of the throat as it enters and shaves lead.

If the bullet has to find and then jump into the throat because the front driving when chambered was too short to reach the throat it will shave lead and leave it in the throats. My most recent experience with this was with a S&W 624 44 Spl but the principal is the same regardless of which revolver. The cure was very simple, a longer bullet where the front driving band was already in the throats (and a mild snug fit) when the firing pin hit the primer. The more over throat diameter your bullets are sized in this condition the more cylinder leading you will get, right up to and including spitting it out on the front of the forcing cone. Keep shooting and the leading will migrate out to the barrel frame past the forcing cone and lead you to believe a B/F constriction is the problem. That's what I first thought with the Smith but it wasn't a barrel frame constriction, a longer bullet (sized the same) solved the problem.

Rick

Is that not why a .38 does not shoot as good as a .357? or a .44 special in a mag? A .480 in a .475?
You have it right. But what do you do when all is correct and the gun refuses to shoot?
The truth is that the few Freedoms I have fooled with for years never had ANY leading in the barrels, clean as a whistle. One shoots, one is junk.
Now Freedom has gone chapter 11 or 7, don't remember but their greed and lack of precision for the price is a cost they have to bear.
Maybe Magnum Research will buy them and make a good gun.

[cbrick]

But what do you do when all is correct and the gun refuses to shoot?

Can't answer your question 44 man, I've yet to find one that wouldn't shoot exceptionaly well and I have worked with many of them in several calibers.

Rick

The truth is that the few Freedoms I have fooled with for years never had ANY leading in the barrels, clean as a whistle.

He didn't say barrel . . . He said cylinder. However, same here, never had any any leading worth mentioning in a FA barrel.

Rick

[44man]

Can't answer your question 44 man, I've yet to find one that wouldn't shoot exceptionaly well and I have worked with many of them in several calibers.

Rick



He didn't say barrel . . . He said cylinder. However, same here, never had any any leading worth mentioning in a FA barrel.

Rick

It has always galled me too. The gun is beautiful but like a Ruger or any other gun, all do not shoot. You have been lucky.
If you get a bad Freedom and try to sell it, you will take a huge loss even if the buyer does not know the history.
Can you say "Edsel?"

[onceabull]

Have you noticed how the all major gun auctions are choked up with the bad FA's, being sold "at a huge loss"...Onceabull

[cbrick]

It has always galled me too. The gun is beautiful but like a Ruger or any other gun, all do not shoot. You have been lucky.

If you get a bad Freedom and try to sell it, you will take a huge loss even if the buyer does not know the history.
Can you say "Edsel?"

I dunno 44 man, sure seems odd to me that ALL of the bad FA's went your way and ALL of the good ones came my way. Yep, very odd indeed.

I have worked with many FA's and competed against far more and they were all excellent shooting revolvers. I'm still looking for that Edsel and ain't found it yet.

Seems to me that the history is (from reading years of your posts) that you got into a pissin match with Bob Baker and you have been trying to discredit the revolver ever since. That would be a more successful tactic if you use it with people that don't shoot with and compete against FA's, they won't know and might believe.

My own experience with FA customer service is somewhere between excellent and outstanding and includes phone, letters and time spent with Bob Baker at the SHOT Show.

Rick

[longhorn]

Chapter 11. This will be interesting.

Mine is outstandingly accurate.

My only 2 experiences with FA's customer service, once 15 or so years ago, and just a few months ago, have both been exemplary.

[44man]

I dunno 44 man, sure seems odd to me that ALL of the bad FA's went your way and ALL of the good ones came my way. Yep, very odd indeed.

I have worked with many FA's and competed against far more and they were all excellent shooting revolvers. I'm still looking for that Edsel and ain't found it yet.

Seems to me that the history is (from reading years of your posts) that you got into a pissin match with Bob Baker and you have been trying to discredit the revolver ever since. That would be a more successful tactic if you use it with people that don't shoot with and compete against FA's, they won't know and might believe.

My own experience with FA customer service is somewhere between excellent and outstanding and includes phone, letters and time spent with Bob Baker at the SHOT Show.

Rick

I did compete against them and even with the junky Ruger sights, I beat them time and again. I shot 79 out of 80 at the state shoot and the last ram miss was my fault. I shot many 39's and 40's with my Ruger. I won state with the Ruger Mark II with no sight settings, new gun. I missed 3, first pig, turkey and ram. I got all the shoot off chickens at 100 yards. 57 out of 60!
Back then if you laid a Freedom and a Ruger on the bench, I would take the Freedom sights and the Ruger. Nobody ever beat me with a Freedom. For a fact, nobody ever out shot me with a revolver but I never went to the nationals where the DW was tops. But they went to pot just like Freedom is. DW made so many bad guns it was funny. A good one shot for sure. A bad one was a nightmare.
I will not tell you what I did with my MOA, Wichita, or XP 100. Maybe a little, like 5 shots in 3/8" at 100 meters.
Been there, done that, I am not a rookie. IHMSA got expensive and boring. Had to get rid of the 40 targets and shoot the little shoot off targets at 200 meters to win. Yes my POC Ruger would hit chicken after chicken at 200.
Today, give me a BFR and I will show what a revolver will do.
You push one lucky target but I show hundreds that are common.
Why is Freedom in financial trouble? Baker is not his father, he led the company to ruin.

[cbrick]

Now there you go again.

I never said that a Ruger wouldn't shoot so why try so hard to defend them?

Silhouette isn't boring to a lot of folks, me included. If Freedom is so bad, won't shoot, can never get them to shoot, they are Edsels, please explain (leaving out how well Rugers shoot) why in Master Class Revolver in NRA National Championships AND IHMSA International Revolver Class at both Championships that Freedom Arms is 95+% dominate?

Could it simply be that ALL of these Champion Long Range Revolver shooters in both sanctioning bodies only want to shoot revolvers that do not shoot, cannot be made to shoot? Yep, that's it indeed. FA's can't shoot, all these top revolver shooters simply like Edsels.

I know about your State Championship scores. I also have won Master Class Revolver State Championship with a perfect score of 60x60, with cast bullets of course. Did I forget to mention that I used an Edsel? Yep, I just wanted the extra challenge of winning with a revolver that cannot be made to shoot. I have also on a couple of occasions won the NRA National Championship Revolver Team event (also in other categories) and all three of us each time were using those Edsels.

Rick

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
I do not want to complain for my Freedom Arms Revolver. It is very accurate, high precision built and I love the weight and massive frame with the old style single action trigger.
I guess cbrick is right because the lead bullit has not reached the driving band inside of the chamber of the cylinder and exactly in that area (appr. 1-4 Millimeter) before of the driving band (which is of smaller diameter than the chamber itself) was the leading.
In the middle of the picture is the lead bullet (175grains) 357. I use the 451 lead bullet as shown on the right for my Les Baer Premier II and the bullet with the cooper coating now for the FA.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/geschosse.jpg
uwe from Germany
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/10550226.jpg/

[cbrick]

freedom arms 353,

Seems we have discovered the cause of your cylinder leading. The bullet you were using is the same bullet that caused the cylinder leading in my FA. I don't believe that with this bullet you will ever stop the cylinder leading. This bullet not only caused cylinder leading but also destroyed long range accuracy.

Your cylinder leading bullet (center in your photo) is SAECO #396, the same bullet on the left in my photo. The bullet on the right in my photo is the gas checked version, SAECO #399.

For the cylinder leading the gas check doesn't matter, its the two diameter bullet. The front driving band is considerably smaller than bullet diameter. Even though the front driving band is in the throat when a cartridge is chambered it allows the cartridge to lay at an angle in the chamber. When fired the middle driving band strikes the forward edge of the throat shaving lead and leaving it in the cylinder.

Both bullets (#396 & #399) in my photo are sized to properly fit my FA throats. Notice that the front driving band wasn't touched by the sizing die.

Your leading didn't stop because you started using a plated bullet. Your cylinder leading stopped because you stopped using the two diameter SAECO bullet.

You can very effectively shoot cast bullets in your FA with no leading, you simply need to use a bullet that when chambered the front driving band properly fits snugly in the throats, this will properly align the bullet in the throats and with the forcing cone and bore.

The cure to your cylinder leading problem really is that simple.

Rick

[freedom arms 353]

cbrick,
probably you are right. When I press (with my fingers and little force) the bullet in the throat of the cylinder with the head first, it fits. When I press the bullet in the throat of the cylinder with the other end first I need much more force.

Does is it mean I have to size every single bullet with a special dies to bring it in the correct diameter?

uwe from Germany

BTW: At the moment I plan to buy a S&W 17-3 in 22lfb (mint in the box). So probably leading will be no problem with that nice revolver

[44man]

Sorry Cbrick, it was Bakers attitude that done us in. I was not even involved yet. I listened to my friend talking to Baker on the phone at work. It was later I tried to help and try to make the gun shoot because my friend would hang up with a red face he was so angry. That started a few years of work. After Baker found I had slugged the bore and found it out of round and grossly oversize, he blamed me.
My friend had to pay $117 postage both ways for a barrel change. The new one was larger then the old one and still out of round. .3593" to 3599" with a .357" throat. Shot worse!
More nasty calls and E mails until Baker paid postage to fix the gun. He accused my friend of shooting lead and then jacketed, ruining the barrel. Lead was NOT shot at that time. He found I slugged the bore again so he blamed me for leaving lead in the bore and ruining it.
Finally the bore was right but he changed the cylinder too, I don't know why. It still would not shoot and every chamber shot to a different place.
The gun was put on consignment for over a year at less then half price, never sold. He sent it in on his dollar again and had a shorter barrel fit. NO IDEA WHY! It still will not shoot.
Along the line the hammer block failed and I had to make a new part that wore out. I also made a new trigger spring to reduce pull because postage and a $100 charge for the work was crazy. He just can't get rid of the gun.
Here is the chamber test, one of many.