How to best use 3031 in modern L-A 45-70 class?

[Naphtali]

As near as I can determine, H/IMR 4198 are considered the most efficient powders to use in high-end lever action handloads for 45-70 and 350-405-grain bullets.

IMR 3031 is slightly slower burning powder than the 4198s. In .45-caliber lever actions I think this means it is better suited for: slightly larger powder capacity per bullet weight; slightly longer barrels (24-28 inches); and slightly heavier bullets than the usual 350-405 grains.

If the previously written paragraphs are accurate, is a slightly "enhanced" 45-70, such as 457 WWG correct to take best advantage of IMR 3031?

Or is it better to ask: How to use 3031 in 45-70/457 WWG/45-90 class of modern lever actions in terms of case capacity, bullet weight, and barrel length?

[Buckshot]

...............IMHO 4198 is too fast for maximum effort loads in rifles designed to handle them. THE powder for such things "IS" IMR3031. I have a MAS36 converted to 45-70 and consider it the equal of at least the Siamese Mauser, which shows hotter loads then the M95 Marlin.

I won't quote the load but a 405gr slug at 2200 fps and a 500 gr at 2000 is do-able in my rifle, and the primers ARE flattening some, although the primer's radius is still evident. Since the Rhino's and elephants have been pretty well thinned out in our neighborhood, I felt experimenting could cease at that point. Using 4198 would have probably wreaked the rifle, and maybe even me.

I'm afraid I don't know what the 457 WWG is.

I have a 45-90 in a Sharps action so I didn't press it as hard, but speaking without complete testing, I'd think 3031 would be a bit fast in that case. I'm 55 so I was brought up on and started reloading with mainly the DuPont powders, now IMR. Hercules stuff was for pistols and shotguns in my circle of friends, and my mentors were well older then me.

What I'm saying is I haven't burned my first grain of Vitavoury powder, nor Ramshot or whatever that brand is, and beyond 5744 and 2200 I am unfamiliar with the Accurate line. I've just kept on keeping on with the stuff I'm really familiar with. A person wanting the very last FPS of speed and LB/FT of energy could probably find something amongst the bewildering number of powders we now have available to us.

...................Buckshot

[NickSS]

I used 42 gr of 3031 in a 45-70 reger Number 3 rifle for several years. Never chronoed it but it shot MOA groups and did it with monotonous regularity. The gun recoiled plenty hard for me with a 400 gr slug and that load. It also went clean clear through everything I ever shot with it including wild hog, deer and elk so I never lacked penetration or killing power.

[Naphtali]

You both identify actions with higher design strength than modern lever actions, I think. When operating pressures are lower, perhaps 40K CUP is a realistic maximum for USRAC/Winchester/Browning/Marlin 1895 lever actions (I don't care if someone routinely uses higher pressure reloads), is 3031 still more efficient than the 4198s?
***
"457 WWG" is a proprietary cartridge from Wild West Guns. It is a 45-90 case shortened to 2.25 inches with overall length of 2.68 inches -- probably achieving about 10 grains additional powder capacity. I've observed it being marketed only for modern Marlin M1895 rifles. Mr. West offers loading data, as does Hodgdon's. It's a step heavier than most 45-70 handloads for modern lever actions.

[Bullshop]

Oh goody goody this is my kinda stuff.
Anybody remember ol Elmer. He was fond of the 86 in 45/70 too. Whats not to like right! Anyway for a long long time printed 100's of times THE Keith load for the 86 is 52gn 3031 with the 405. That load has become a clasic for the 86 45/70and it a good one.
Now I gotta admit to using more of the 4198 class of powders in the 45/70 than 30/31.
By class of powders I mean Both Hodgdons and IMR 4198, Scott 4197, and AA 2015.
Likely the biggest reason I have is because I have them but do not have 30/31, right now. I say right now because I remember being a young fella and using nothing else but 30/31.
I started buying the faster powders because I started shooting bigger caliber guns using straight wall cases, namely 50 cal. A 50 cal has qite a high expansion ratio compaired to a 45 cal. When both are straight wall case there is no aid from case design to raise pressure to aid in burning powder. Where a 45 cal straight case could peg 30/31 as an optimum burn rate to produce gas at a fast enough rate to keep the push going for a 50 cal straight case that optimum rate hase to be somewhat faster even if you do kick up the twist rate. That increase in caliber equale far more internal volume per inch to be filled.
If anybody has access to the Handloader article dealing with the 50 Alaskan look it up and see what the Powley computer pegged as optimum burn rate, and I have to agree.
Anyway I am rambling and forgetting what it was I felt I needed to say. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. He is full a smoke and hot air like the Wizard, maybe!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Naphtali]

Oh goody goody this is my kinda stuff. . . . look it up and see what the Powley computer pegged as optimum burn rate, and I have to agree.
Anyway I am rambling and forgetting what it was I felt I needed to say. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. He is full a smoke and hot air like the Wizard, maybe!
Blessings
BIC/BS

You've touched a nerve. Powley's computer online. I attempted to use it and found I could not alter input data. The result I obtained was approximately bean shooter level, nearly off-the-charts low pressure according to Hodgdon's.

1. How do I adjust input to calculate what I want calculated?

2. I run Macintosh OS 9.2.2 so I cannot acquire or use Quickload or other [pressure] ballistics software. Since Powley's online uses 4198 and 3031, I believed this software would meet my needs beautifully. Macs are for non-experts; I qualify. How can I do what I want to do?

[Bullshop]

Sorry I cant help ya with that, but I bet someone here will. The Powley computer I was referring to is the slide rule type, I know nothing of any other.
OH yea now I remember it was about the 457 WWG
I had a chance to play with one for a customer this season.
He had me load some ammo. He supplied some factory, WWG ammo so I had a chance to chrono some. They, WWG claim 2300 fps with thier 350gn factory load, but the chrono said 2019 fps. Same chrono that says the 330gn RCBS is leaving the muzzle of my 24" XLR 45/70 at 2150 fps.
My rifle using (cant remember without looking) somewhere around 53gn Scott 4197 (AA 2015) with the RCBS 330 FNGC ang giving most excellent accuracy using ACWW. Now the 457 WWG is pushing 20gn more bullet but in this case I feel is not even equaling the 45/70 at its potencial. This is what I told him to expect before I ever loaded a cartridge for him.
I was able to achieve an even 2000 fps for him with the RCBS 430gn fngc which is quite some better than factory and perhaps a slight improvment over what I feel safe doing with a 45/70 in the same action.
Point here is its mostly hype smoke and mirors what WWG claims for thier cartridge especially in factory ammo.
Very nice guns when they do there slick up work on them but to me not worth the $1800.00 he said he paid for it, and quite asham they cant be a bit closer to the balistic truth. All in all I see very little gain in the longer case used in the Marlin platform. The true gain is in cost to the user.

BICBS

[Naphtali]

Sorry I cant help ya with that, but I bet someone here will. The Powley computer I was referring to is the slide rule type, I know nothing of any other.
BICBS

These are still available? I owned one about -- my goodness, has it been that long?? -- 30 years ago. While I cannot remember whether it has the flexibility I want, I'm will to take a moderate risk to try. Would the data on which the slide rule version is based yield valid calculations with current versions of the IMR/H powders?

[scrapcan]

There was a revised version that was still being sold by Hutton Rifle Ranch. That is to say it was being sold a vew years ago.

Hutton Rifle Ranch
P.O. Box 45236
Boise, IDAHO 83711

[twotrees]

Yea I know about the 52 gr load, but my load of 405 flat base Boolit ACWW over 48 gr of 3031 in RP cases gives me all I want.

At 1800+FPS it has "kissed my eyebrow a couple of times, on the bench.

Hit a small meat buck in the neck at 70 yards and he moved 3 ft, straight down. The shot took 3 vertebrae and launched them down through the woods.

I don't want or need anymore power in my Marlin 1895 (Ballard rifling).

Now My Siam Mauser, is for TRex , if he ever shows up in the neighborhood.

Good Shooting,

[Naphtali]

manleyjt: Many thanks for Hutton data. I'll get on it tomorrow if I locate a telephone number.
***
twotrees: You mention Ballard rifling in your M1895 Marlin. Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't all currently made M1895s barrels incorporate Ballard rifling? I am under the impression that 45-70 M1895s having microgrooved barrels have not been available for at least five years. And stainless steel M1895s have never had microgrooved barrels. Having written that, Marlin's 2008 catalog does not list, for example, the M1895 XLR 45-70 as having Ballard rifling. I could be because of space limitations within catalog's layout. Nevertheless, it's an anomaly.

[Bullshop]

Twotrees
The 52gn 3031 load that Elmer spoke of was for 1886 winchester and origonal 1895 Marlins.
Those rifles would handle a much longer OAL than the current 1895 Marlin (336). Longer OAL with the same boolit/bullet and powder charge means lower pressure.
It is possible that with your reduced load of 48gn 3031 and a 405gn boolit and the shorter OAL required to cycle through a modern Marlin 1895 you are producing about the same pressure/velocity as the clasic load in the longer receiver and OAL.
I believe I recall Elmer mentioning 1800 fps with his load from the 1886 Win.
Trying his load in a Marlin 336 receiver may well be too much of a good thing.
I once killed a cow elk with a Marlin shooting the RCBS 430gn and 35gn 3031. The shot was from very close and shooting uphill. The hit was in the briskut and out the hump between the sholders. It had the same effect you got, lots of vertabra gone and a really big hole out.
BIC/BS

[Naphtali]

. . . OH yea now I remember it was about the 457 WWG
I had a chance to play with one for a customer this season.
He had me load some ammo. He supplied some factory, WWG ammo so I had a chance to chrono some. They, WWG claim 2300 fps with thier 350gn factory load, but the chrono said 2019 fps. Same chrono that says the 330gn RCBS is leaving the muzzle of my 24" XLR 45/70 at 2150 fps.
My rifle using (cant remember without looking) somewhere around 53gn Scott 4197 (AA 2015) with the RCBS 330 FNGC ang giving most excellent accuracy using ACWW. Now the 457 WWG is pushing 20gn more bullet but in this case I feel is not even equaling the 45/70 at its potencial. This is what I told him to expect before I ever loaded a cartridge for him.
I was able to achieve an even 2000 fps for him with the RCBS 430gn fngc which is quite some better than factory and perhaps a slight improvment over what I feel safe doing with a 45/70 in the same action.
Point here is its mostly hype smoke and mirors what WWG claims for thier cartridge especially in factory ammo.
Very nice guns when they do there slick up work on them but to me not worth the $1800.00 he said he paid for it, and quite asham they cant be a bit closer to the balistic truth. All in all I see very little gain in the longer case used in the Marlin platform. The true gain is in cost to the user.

BICBS

The WWG cartridge, having greater case capacity, greater overall cartridge length, and greater "real world" capacity than 45-70 cartridge yields inferior exterior ballistics? I accept what you have written. I do not understand how Wild West Guns managed to achieve inferiority with physical superiority. A Marlin M1895 action is the same for either cartridge except where WWG or other gunsmith has altered it to chamber and feed 457 WWG's greater length. On paper, everything seems to be the same except for 457 WWG having more mustard. Clearly, I'm omitting some critical and obvious bits of information. But I have no clue what they are.

[Bullshop]

Naphtali
I never said the WWG 457 was inferior to the 45/70. What I said was it did not live up to the claimed balistics with factory ammo. I also said I was able to achieve 2000 fps with the RCBS 430gn and that I am not comfortable doing that with a 45/70. With the 45/70 in a Marlin I quit at 1850 fps with the 430gn boolit. So there is some potential for balistic gain there, it just does not seem to be available from the factory ammo.
Point was is the potential gain worth the additional cost of having to have the Marlin action lengthened and having to go to the longer brass. Not for me. I think most folks loading for it will not drive it to its potential just as most dont with the 45/70. So if they are going to depend on factory ammo for improved performance that performance will only be imagined.
Just as with the 450 Marlin over the 45/70 in a Marlin, not much room for improvment over the old war horse for someone that knows what thier doing. No offence ment there just mean that maos folks stay on the shy side of pressure limits.
Many moons ago going back about 4 issues of Speer loading books a friend contacted the technition at Lewiston about some loads we were using with thier bullet, the 405gn.
The book gave a max load of I believe 62gn RE#7 for 2100 fps from a siamese.
We were getting no real pressure signs from it so my friend contacted the tech and was told that no loads listed exceeded 40,000 psi, at least thats what I recall.
The tech said they discontinued the data because the recoil became intolerable.
We always think of the Marlin as a 40,000 psi platform but if we were to really push it to that level could ya hold onto it? I think to get the RCBS 430gn to 1850 fps we are likely somewhere in the mid 30's if using something like 3031.
BIC/BS

[twotrees]

Naphtali

My Marlin is a new safety model with Ballard Rifling. I, for 1 don't mind the safety on it, just have to make sure where it is when I'm hunting.

Recoil is subjective, I can take a lot because I need rocks in my pockets on a windy day, to keep me from blowing away. My mass isn't enough to try and keep me in place when a heavy boomer goes off.

BUT>>>>>>>>>>> When a scope that starts out 3.5 inches from my eye starts to "Kiss Me" That's it, I quit. I already have my "Rifleman's badge" and don't need to re-freshen it.

I worked that load up and get very acceptable accuracy with it, so that's where it will stay.

Bullshop,

You are probably right about the longer load.

A friend, that shoots a lot of big boomers tried the Ruger #1 load of 52 gr 3031 behind a 500 gr Jword and said "No more". ( In a new Ruger #1 SS) Too much of a good thing. And it's not necessary the 45-70 slew a bunch of Buff's at 1300 FPS and I don't shoot anything that big. A 400 Lb wild hog does try to do an impression of a Sherman tank, at times, but they still go down, for the count, when the 45-70 speaks.

I don't have a 450 Marlin cart , but a friend shoots one, Could I load some of his empties, for him, with my 45-70 dies?

Since I only have to re-size and expand, can't see why, with the proper shell holder, I couldn't try.

He wants to give cast Boolits a try, but would have to buy all casting and reloading gear for this cal, before he found out if he liked it or not.

What the heck, I'm a glutton for punishment, like I said earlier.

Good Shooting Y'All

[Maineboy]

Yea I know about the 52 gr load, but my load of 405 flat base Boolit ACWW over 48 gr of 3031 in RP cases gives me all I want.

At 1800+FPS it has "kissed my eyebrow a couple of times, on the bench.

Hit a small meat buck in the neck at 70 yards and he moved 3 ft, straight down. The shot took 3 vertebrae and launched them down through the woods.

I don't want or need anymore power in my Marlin 1895 (Ballard rifling).

Now My Siam Mauser, is for TRex , if he ever shows up in the neighborhood.

Good Shooting,

Twotrees, you 're getting 1800+FPS with 48 grains of 3031? My load of 50 grains of 3031 and the Lee 405 FB gets 1625 fps in my 24" 1895.

[Bullshop]

Twotrees
Freshen your riflemans badge, thats a good one.
Yes Sir you can load them 450's with a 45/70 die set, you just wont be able to crimp them. I may have dont it but cant remember for sure. I do remember for sure loading 458x2" with 45/70 dies. The only differance there is the belt and just a wee little length.
BIC/BS

[twotrees]

I'll have to check my load book, but that's what I remember the crony reading. And it was a low SD.

My Alloy casts light, Hard and maybe that's where I'm getting the added FPS.

Lube is the Old Lyman Graphite black lube, sure wish they hadn't changed to moly, that old Graphite worked really well for my loads from 1700-2200 FPS in the diffrent rifles I cast for.

Good Shooting,

[AlaskaMike]

Point was is the potential gain worth the additional cost of having to have the Marlin action lengthened and having to go to the longer brass. Not for me.

It would seem like rather than lengthen the action, that reaming the chamber bigger for something like the .450 Alaskan would be the way to go. Or would there be problems with that?

I was rereading an old issue of Handloader from 1999 that included an article on Harold Johnson and his development of the .450 Alaskan and found it fascinating.

Mike

[frank505]

I use Elmer Keith's load of 63 grains of 3031 and 405 gas check bullet in my 450 AK. Does 2150 fps and wont stay in anything Ive shot with it. Will shoot snake eyes at 100 yards from sitting, tried the Marlin's for years, got tired of too light of a rifle and so so accuracy. Finally found a 450AK and will never look back. The cases last about forever with this load also. I also have a Siamese Mauser in 450 with dies if anyone is interested.