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Thread: Pedersoli cancels sponsorship

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Pedersoli cancels sponsorship

    In light of the recent thread on traditional muzzle loaders I thought this recent message from the president of Pedersoli was very interesting. Pedersoli makes a lot of muzzle loading rifles, both traditional and inline. Food for thought and discussion.

    13Echo

    "In the past we allowed Mr. Bridges to test our traditional ML rifles
    as well as our inline ML rifles and he had our cooperation and
    limited sponsorship. Due to the new path Mr. Bridges has taken , in
    which traditional muzzle loading rifles would no longer have their
    current exclusive hunting period and in which inline rifles would
    hunt at the same time as the traditional rifles, we have withdrawn
    our former support and sponsorship of Toby Bridges."

    "The Davide Pedersoli company has advised Mr. Toby Bridges to remove
    our company name from any list of sponsors who support his lobbying
    efforts because even though we manufacture in-line muzzle loading
    rifles, we strongly support the use of traditional types of
    flintlock and percussion lock rifles during hunting periods assigned
    to muzzle loading rifles.
    We always believed that the hunting with muzzleloading guns, both
    traditional and modern black powder in-line rifles, could co-exist,
    even if two different muzzleloading hunting seasons would be more
    required. Certainly we never thought they could get into conflict
    with each other.
    We regret Toby Bridge's decision which surprised us, considering
    that in the past he took important positions, which we could share,
    but absolutely not his last one.
    The use of traditional muzzleloading rifles for hunting has all the
    historical, political and rational reasons to continue and to expand
    and cannot be forced to die, as Toby Bridges warns and predicts (and
    is trying to make happen) nor can be the enthusiasm and will of
    people who are dedicated to this traditional sector be disregarded.
    On the contrary, the traditional muzzle loading guns contributed
    surely much more than the modern inline muzzleloading guns have to
    the muzzle loading hunting being accepted in our states. Rather than
    trying to promote the inline rifles and push aside the exclusive
    hunting season for traditional percussion or flintlock rifles we
    should all be working to strengthen the separation of hunting seasons
    for archers, traditional muzzle loading rifles, the powerful inline
    rifles and of course the modern cartridge rifles."

    "The inline rifles compare directly with modern high power cartridge
    rifles and we hope that all government officials involved with making
    or changing hunting rules will recognize the big advantage in power
    and range which inline rifles (which use conical bullets) have over
    the traditional antique or replica rifles which use round ball
    bullets. Both archery hunters and traditional muzzle loading rifle
    hunters accept the great challenge and limitation of their hunting
    weapons, the need to stalk the game and get very close in order to
    make a clean killing shot. For the inline rifle and modern cartridge
    rifle hunters a much different challenge is presented and the mixing
    of traditional and inline rifles in the field at the same time would
    be unexceptable to the vast majority of traditional muzzle loading
    rifle users."

    "I read the letter Toby Bridges published in his web site in which he
    explained he has been misunderstood. I acknowledge his effort,
    however this letter gives me the opportunity to contradict Toby about
    the in-line rifles being the natural modern evolution of the
    muzzleloading guns.
    The real modern aspect was when many years ago some of the American
    states opened the hunting season to the muzzleloading guns. This was
    a modernity sign! What happened later with the introduction of the in-
    line rifles and the continuous improvements to reach high
    performances, such as the use of pelletized substitute powder,
    waterproof ignition systems or sabot bullets, etc. made the modern
    muzzloading guns get closer to the modern cartridge gun performance.
    I am convinced that the hunters using in-line rifles are only taking
    advantage of this enhanced performance in a dedicated muzzleloading
    hunting season. I am also convinced that if the muzzleloading hunting
    season becomes an "open hunting season", several of the users of the
    in-line rifles will drop their rifles to hunt only with the modern
    ones.
    I have to say that I am fond of the hunt in all its aspects, I am a
    hunter with modern guns, with cartridge guns and with muzzleloading
    traditional guns."

    "Davide Pedersoli is not against the modern In-line rifle hunting,
    which we consider as an alternative and different activity from the
    one with traditional guns . Without doubt, hunting with traditional
    guns must be protected and sustained in the spirit of the rules
    approved in many of the American states because it gives the American
    sportsman a hunting challenge and emotional satisfaction which no
    other type of gun can give."

    Pierangelo Pedersoli,
    President

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I can only respect and applaud Mr. Pedersoli--or any man or woman with similar courage of their convictions. I am in agreement with his position--but even if I weren't, I can appreciate the subtext of integrity his words convey.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy gregg's Avatar
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    Thank You for the information. Toby making a real dust up.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master at Heavens Range

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    Pedersoli gets an attaboy from me.

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    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Good on them! A letter of this type from a manufacturer, will carry more weight in legislation, than any individual effort.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master
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    California does not have a muzzle-loader SEASON per se, although a few local hunts have come and gone. Front-loaders have to compete with the SAUM/RUM-worshippers during the general season here. I can only imagine the UPROAR if archers--who have their tackle-specific season set aside prior to rifle season--had rifle OR muzzle-loading hunters in the field with them. This guy is way outta line, in my view--and could undo a LOT of hard work done my conservationists over many years' time.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Well hmm, most know I have one of the evil beats and like it. I wonder if the bow makers are next going to take similar action against states that allow compound bows, aluminum arrows, the mechanical broadheads that open on impact, releases.....front pin sights, rear peep sights, scopes, crossbows...arrow rests, etc ?? For the sake of tradition we should limit it to recurves bare of any sights right ?? And wood shaft arrows with natural fletching held on with hide glue ? Also no camo clothing, no artificial scents or lures, no fancy activated charcoal lined clothing, and some strict limits on tree stands because after all that was a HUGE innovation for the average bow hunter. IN fact european origin people for the most part never hunted game on this continent with bows ands arrows, so there is no tradition to even uphold there, if we are going to uphold the tradition of english hunters in robin hoods day then bow hunters are gonna have to sell a LOT of gadgets and toys to get back to tradition.

    On our traditional muzzle loaders are we going to allow coil sprint locks ?? improved sights ?? plastic or fiberglass stocks ?? Are we going to limit it to only patched round balls or are we going to allow the successful designs like the Enfield rifled musket that allowed much longer range and a lightning fast reload in comparison to a patched round ball ?? At which point of history are we going to lock the game ?? How about the traditional underhammer design which functionally is very similar to the inline (nipple touches the powder)?? If we are gonna go back to flinters for tradition sake, then we might think on whether or not we will allow rifling at all

    Should we allow pyrodex ??

    I'll be the first to admit I picked my inline because it is the most accurate rifle that fit the rules.......same-same as the "slug" hunters that use rifled hastings bbls and remington copper solid sabot slugs....making a "slug gun" a 200 yard 50-70 rifle in fairly competant hands. And right in with the handgun hunters that use BFR's with scopes on them...or the same in a TC contender chambered in 375 winchestor or 45/70 both of which are legal in ohio's gun season as "handguns"

    The inline design is nothing NEW, you may prove me wrong on that but I have one my dad was working on in 1969 in his garage shop where I grew up....I'll bet a $5 spot that the inline design originated right about when the first pellet priming or paper tape primers came into use, which puts it right there with ANY caplock as a historically accurate design.

    refinement and modern mfg. methods have vastly improved even traditonal black powder rifles, I doubt the average user back in the day enjoyed the level of precision used in todays "traditional" black powder rifles.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  8. #8
    Boolit Master ktw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    Well hmm, most know I have one of the evil beats and like it....
    The current dust-up isn't about whether people should be allowed to choose between traditional sidelock or modern inline muzzleloading rifles.

    It has to do with Toby Bridges campaign to force the 14 or so states that do not allow optics on rifles during their muzzleloading season to do so by filing a complaint with the federal government that the no-optics rules descriminate against older hunters with poor eyesight, putting those states federal funding for wildlife programs at risk.

    In order to cow, or distract, the traditional muzzleloaders from opposing his optics campaign, he has also threatened to go after the use of roundballs during hunting season as 'ineffective' projectiles. This really got the traditional camp in an uproar. Hence their letter writing campaign to Bridge's corporate sponsors, including Pedersoli, Green Mountain and others.

    -ktw
    Last edited by ktw; 10-14-2006 at 02:30 PM. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy hobbles's Avatar
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    Evenin ktw
    Yep, it's the roundball thing that's got most of us upset, My buddy uses one of those Tupperware thing'ies, and we have fun together, kinda like ford and "CHEVY" owners, I like the old ways and the round ball and he don't,, we both get our deer and have a drink together afterwards,,

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Roundballs are cool, that was my biggest gripe about a lot of replica traditional rifles out there, the twist was too fast for round balls. There sure is not an easier projectile to cast than a round ball, and it uses the least amount of lead of about any kind of projectile (there are exceptions).

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Willbird;
    With you 100%, Inline flintlocks were made as far back as 1700, revolvers are surely inline, the harmonica rifles Moses Browning made were inline, this was about 1860, conicals were in use well before 1860, powders other than the holy black were common in Europe before 1860.
    I have a side lock, the cheapest and simplest way for a flintlock owner to convert to caps, I have an underhammer, must be the simplist lock known to man, other than the trigger guard and a small spring on the trigger, there are only 2 parts, but someone designed it, did not just take the easiest way to go from flintlock to percussion.
    My position is that if it does not use fixed ammo, it should be legal for a muzzle loader season, however, Texas P&W do not agree and have declared revolvers not muzzle loaders.
    Oh well!;D

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Always figured that toby was opinionated and mostly for his ego and not for the industry. I have both a 54 cal ball shooter with a 1 in 72 twist Green Mountain Barrel and I have an NEF Huntsman in 50 cal fast twist 1 in 28 and a 54 underhammer of my own design that is fast twist 1 in 28. I like shooting both Conicals and Balls and yea WI is one of the states that does limit scopes to red dots or 1 x and yea I wish we could slap on any scope if we so desired but I sure would not go about it like toby did and he is pretty misinformed as the round ball is one heck of a killer in the ranges that usefull at. I am not one even with conicals that say guys should be shooting at 200 yards like Toby and some of the others are pushing. Lots of guys have problems shooting that far with a centerfire let alone a muzzle loader with a rainbow trajectory and due to bullet design you will have a rainbow trajectory. Myself I think guys like Toby and Shockley do little for muzzle loading as they keep pushing the envelope for more distance and trying to get muzzle loaders into centerfire territory which could limit our muzzle loader seasons.
    A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I enjoy front-loaders, and my preferences are PRB/sidelock/traditional. My state doesn't have a special season set aside for primitive firearms, and although that would be nice--I don't feel especially handicapped with a PRB vs. the 6.5 x 55 or 30-06. If it were my decision on a matter like this--I would require roundballs, period. THAT eliminates a lot of the argument over telescopic sights or inlines.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  14. #14
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    The way I see it, the seasons were set up by people who were shooting the traditional sidelock flint and percussion weapons. Then the marketers joined in, to try and make a fast buck. Our ML group wrote up the laws for ML use in Montana over twenty years ago, at the request from State Representaive Ethel Harding. Back then, we hadn't ever seen or heard of an inline muzzleloader, and they were never intended to be included in any hunting areas in this state.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Waksupi, the same is true of rifled shotgun barrels, tney were not in general use when most states setup the deer seasons limited to slug guns, to try to prevent people over in the next county from reciving rifle fire I suppose.(sort of misguided but they won't change their mind)

    Ohio's handgun's in gun season the first few years were limited to revolvers(5" barrel or longer) in 357magnum, 41 magnum, 44 magnum as best I recall, MAYBE 45 colt. Then in a few years they changed ot to allow HANDGUNS in those calibers only(5" barrel minimum), now they have changed it to .
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
    or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger,
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
    so we went from revolvers in 357, 41, 44, 45 colt, to about anything now including the 1911 45 acp, and the 45/70(DNR decided it is a straight walled case) and 375 winchestor single shots, 444 marlin and a host of other rifle calibers in single shots and or huge revolvers are now good to go.

    Now for muzzle loaders, they let the bow hunters hunt in this season and the gun season, PLUS give them 4 whole months to get a deer (Sept30 thru feb 4)
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    muzzle loading season
    Longbow, crossbow (draw weight limitations same as for archery season), muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger, or muzzleloading shotgun of 10, 12, 16, 20, 28, or .410 gauge using one ball per barrel.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I respect your right to an opinion, and we don't even live in the same state to our opinions are not strictly contrary to each other, if we're gonna make it fair I think we should simply open the seasons on private land to let any tag holder have the same 4 months we give the archery guys.....no special seasons for anybody. The for fun lets create a special Big Bucks award every year for traditional archery (barebow recurve with cedar shafts) and muzzle loaders (I am missing the exact cutoff or method of selection you use to determine a percussion cap IS traditional but the inline design which PRE DATES it is not)



    I have not been graced with a deer yet, maybe I will do things to make it MORE of a challenge later on when I get bored with the whole deal, today I want the best gun to use in both gun season and muzzle loader season in ohio, and the TC Omega is that gun, there is no other gun that offers me the same accuracy and ability to put a projectile within 1" of point of aim at 100 yards from a clean non fouled bore, also no other gun gives me the ability to generate over 3800 foot lbs of muzzle energy if I so desire.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy eljefe's Avatar
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    Inlines are technically, and only so, a muzzleloader. I am referring to, of course, the modern plastic stocked and scoped versions; not some anomaly from the 18th century. I don't have anything against them,just not my bag, baby. Also, they not a primitive weapon. The cutoff date that PA used to use is 1830, about the time that percussion caps were alleged to have been invented. Now, of course, they permit conical bullets, fiber optic sights and plastic stocks.

    The technology explosion is market driven, but also is driven by game departments having to amend their rules to attempt to control a burgeoning deer populations in many eastern states. The same holds true of archery hunting; crossbows are becoming more popular every year. So...there is a combination of forces at work, driving technology.

    Alleging discrimination (ADA?) is absurd. Disabled hunters are often at a disadvantage in more ways than vision. What will be next, a mandatory atv ride for the morbidly obese?

    Bill, there is a division in archery; traditional vs modern. One camp wonders when the 99% letoff bow will be developed, while the other can't figure out why someone would want to hunt without sights on their bow. There are a number of hardcore traditionalists who would love nothing more than a trad only season.
    Eventually, they may get it,but I doubt it will be anywhere on the east coast or southeastern US.

    We are no longer hunters, we are game management tools. It could be worse, they could just do as they are doing in some of our subdivisions and hire snipers.

  17. #17
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    I'm against big buck contests. They used to be a fairly common thing here. Then, someone realized that slobs would shoot a buck, and if he saw something bigger, he would shoot that one, and dump the smaller one in the ditch.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master versifier's Avatar
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    Where the deer populations are so large that they are causing problems, I don't see any reason not to share the woods with anyone who wants to fill the freezer. Maybe one answer is to create more mini-seasons/separate seasons and/or zones for different classes of weapons: traditional m/l (perc & flint, no optics), traditional archery (long & recurve), modern m/l, modern bow, crossbow, shotgun & revolver, rifle & hand cannon, and special permits for control of nuisance herds in more thickly settled areas. There's no reason we can't all have our cake and eat it, too. There might be some friction in areas where there aren't a lot of deer, and that sort of problems will have to be thought out and worked out in advance, but the problems are not insoluble if approached in a reasonable manner. Many states have already begun to address different facets of the problem in various ways, and more intercommunication between hunters and the wildlife departments as a whole to share ideas and experiences positive and negative can only benefit us all in the long run.

    Look at the example of cooperation among departments in different states for Hunter Ed - good ideas are shared - some states contribute parts of the manuals, others produce videos on aspects of safety, survival, ethics, and conservation, booklets on wildlife identification, tracking, first aid, map & compass, field dressing game, etc. If a similar degree of motivation and cooperation can be applied to the issues of differing weapons, we could see some real progress.

    But if we allow it to degenerate into a pissing contest as happens all too often, then we all lose.
    Last edited by versifier; 10-15-2006 at 01:02 PM.
    Born OK the first time.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I seem to remember a couple of years ago, Toby was a 100% cheerleader for Savage smokless muzzleloaders. IIRC, after Savage fired him, he claimed his rifle blew up and started to ring the alarm. Makes one wonder, huh? -JDL

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Good point, Versifier. As long as the season choices and weapon/tackle choices are dictated by the resource management rubric--good things will happen for both the game and the hunters. That's really the bottom line here--it's all pretty much a fashion statement, when you boil it down some.

    I've always liked the Michigan model--archery prior to general season start (11/15)--then 15 day general season--then blackpowder/primitive firearms, sometimes called "deep snow hunting". CA's seasons are set WAY too early, archery in mid-September here, in some places late August (!), then general season from Columbus Day to Veteran's Day (roughly). There might be a little rutting activity late in the general season, but not much.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check