Barrel as a Case Gauge?

[stainless1911]

Ok, I think we are on the right track now, I fired off the 50 you gave me, and there was no real leading, only a grey "whitewash" for the lack of a better term. Should I expect a better result or no? I have never had the chance to inspect a barrel that had leading until now, or a barrel that had lead shot through it correctly.

[thx997303]

Antimony wash.

No problems there.

[stainless1911]

Well then, I (think) we have solved the problem. I had deltaenterprizes from this forum make a new expander for the PTE die at .400 instead of the .397 that the Lee die came with, I'll try a couple hundred at that dimension once the part arrives, and will post the results here. I got a really good price on this thing, and am really hpoing that it will do the trick.

If not, what should I change?

[geargnasher]

Just make sure the expander spud expands the case deep enough.

Here's the dope on the cases I sent you: The expander is .4012" in diameter, .320" from where the tip of the expander stops expanding the case to the point that the case mouth stops on the expander bell. In other words, you can seat a boolit at least .300" into the case without squishing the base.

If you're wondering why the expander spud needs to be as big or bigger than the boolit being seated it's because .40 S&W brass is VERY springy, and with the Lee carbide sizer die, it might get sized a bit smaller than it needs to be. All these things work against you if your expander isn't the right size. My brass seems to spring back to .3995" or so after being expanded, so there's still plenty of tension.

Would you give us some specifics on the load you used for those 50 test rounds?

Gear

[stainless1911]

I used the Lyman truncated cone bevel base 180 gr. Water dropped wheel weights. sized to .4015.
Winchester 231 powder @ 5.0 grains,
Winchester WSP primers.
The lube : 1 lb. beeswax, 1 lb paraphin, 13oz. petroleum jelly, 2=-1/2 tbsp. STP oil treatment, and 4-1/2 tbsp. lanolin.
The OAL was 1.140 in Speer brass

[geargnasher]

If you're going to use 231 for this, I would think that using air-cooled wheel weights and backing off to 4.5 grains would be best. You're pushing the pressure limit with 231, and the .40 doesn't work very well with cast boolits when you use a medium-burn-rate pistol powder at near maximum pressure. If you want to keep in the high-performance range (950+ fps is what I consider the beginning of the high end for this cartridge, 1150 being near the limit), use a slower powder. I've had excellent results from Hodgdon Longshot at 1000-1100 fps. using water-quenched wheel weights at 20-22 bhn.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Im confused,
I thought the limit was around 5.8 with 231? at least that's what the Lyman guide (49th) said. Im not getting signs of overpressure, and the recoil is good, less than the store bought rounds. Am I missing something?

[thx997303]

Yeah you seem to be missing something.

Cast doesn't need as high of powder charge in general to perform.

My go to charge in 9mm happens to be .1 gr over starting charge.

It does 1100 fps with a 125 gr boolit.

I usually start a little lower than start IF the powder's burn characteristics allow.

[stainless1911]

Is there a chart somewhere that compares the cast to the copper?

[stainless1911]

I was considering HS-6, or No.9 Accurate, which one would work better?

[prickett]

Is there a chart somewhere that compares the cast to the copper?

IIRC I once saw where you use the minimum jacketed bullet's load as the maximum cast load (where bullets are the same weight).

[geargnasher]

IIRC I once saw where you use the minimum jacketed bullet's load as the maximum cast load (where bullets are the same weight).

So what's everybody doing now, just guessing at load data with no clue what the pressures or velocities are? C'mon, guys, you can't guess at this stuff, the difference between a safe maximum and a KABOOM can be half a grain! And I don't care what any source of data says, "maximum loads" are often right at the SAAMMI max pressures with the specific components and firearm used, no others, and what may be safe in one gun may not be nearly so in another. Change the primer brand or type, headstamp of brass, or projectile (even the brand of the mould or the brand of jacketed bullet being used can have different bearing surfaces or alloy composition), pressures change.

Now, back to my point. Five grains of 231 is probably a little fast for best accuracy and minimal leading at midrange velocity, and if pushed up the problems increase. For the velocities that five grains of 231 are generating, much better accuracy and less fouling would result from using a slower powder. Slow pistol powders build pressure more slowly, "launches" the boolit more slowly, and gets it up to higher velocities with less damage to the boolit, particularly reducing the skidding as the boolit takes the rifling and gets yanked into a spin. Slow powders would be very desirable for low velocity plinking stuff, too, but they tend to burn very dirty at low pressure and often cause failures to go into battery due do powder and lube fouling in the front of the chamber. For midrange and lower, fast, clean powders, moderate pressures, and softer alloys like air-cooled wheel weight metal is perfect because it conforms and seals better with less pressure than the harder stuff. In my experience with this caliber, water-quenched wheel weights are needed for anything over 1,000 fps if you want to have accuracy and no leading, but you won't have very good groups or lead-free bores without using a powder like HS6 or slower. If enough people keep experimenting with cast boolits in the .40 and 10mm, improvements over what I've done with the medium and fast powders, but I don't really see the need to "go against the grain" when loading for this.

It is often missed that the .40 S&W is really a high-pressure cartridge and when using cast boolits might best be loaded with the philosophy one would apply to the .357 Magnum rather than the .45 ACP. At the high end of its pressure/velocity range with cast, the .40 would best be suited to a gas-checked boolit.

Gear

[stainless1911]

So what's everybody doing now, just guessing at load data with no clue what the pressures or velocities are?

Gear

No, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong because I was using the Lyman guide, and the Lyman mold that I am casting with is listed in one of their charts in the book. It shows 15 different powders for that boolet, and their minimum to maximum charges, so, I thought I was right on track.

It shows 231 starting at 4.3 and max at 5.8. I tried loading 25 each, at 4.3, 4.5, 4.7 and so on, until I got a flat primer at 5.4 IIRC. I had no Idea that I was doing it wrong. The other book I have is the Speer#14, but doesnt give load data for a .40.

The Lyman guide shows HS-6 with a starting load of 7.0 with a velocity of 976, and CUP of 18,600, and a max charge of 8.4 with a velocity of 1129, and CUP of 22,800. What do you think of those numbers?

Is the guide that far off even with their own molds?

ETA, I am using a 3" barrel, (as measured from the breech face), if that makes a difference.

[geargnasher]

No, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong because I was using the Lyman guide, and the Lyman mold that I am casting with is listed in one of their charts in the book. It shows 15 different powders for that boolet, and their minimum to maximum charges, so, I thought I was right on track. You thought so? So why do you suppose you're having so much trouble, then? Perhaps you miss my point. I've been sharing with you the results I have achieved through several thousand test rounds with eleven powders and nearly a hundred load combinations, including three alloys. I have found some things work better than others, and I'm telling you that 5 grains of 231 is not your best choice for what you're trying to do.

It shows 231 starting at 4.3 and max at 5.8. I tried loading 25 each, at 4.3, 4.5, 4.7 and so on, until I got a flat primer at 5.4 IIRC. I had no Idea that I was doing it wrong. The other book I have is the Speer#14, but doesnt give load data for a .40. Good. Now where was your best accuracy and least leading?

The Lyman guide shows HS-6 with a starting load of 7.0 with a velocity of 976, and CUP of 18,600, and a max charge of 8.4 with a velocity of 1129, and CUP of 22,800. What do you think of those numbers? What makes you think that you, with a three-inch gun, using WDWW alloy sized .0015" over groove diameter, different brand of cases, and automatic gun will have even remotely similar results to the test gun, which was a universal receiver, locked breech, .401 groove, Lyman #2 alloy (air cooled), sized at groove (.401"), and using Winchester brass? Do you see how that can affect your results? The point here is to do what is safe and work toward what works best.

Is the guide that far off even with their own molds? No, it is the end user and his particular set of circumstances that can be off of Lyman's otherwise fairly decent data.

ETA, I am using a 3" barrel, (as measured from the breech face), if that makes a difference. 25% less barrel than the test gun certainly makes a difference.

Load books are a guide, they will not lead you to the holy grail, especially with cast. Some things work better than others, and cast boolts can be very finicky, especially when pushed near their limits. Our journey is to discover the likes and dislikes of particular calibers, and especially the individual guns we own, I'm trying to show you some things that worked for me, and point out things you are doing which exacerbate your difficulties.

Gear

[stainless1911]

I wasn't trying to take issue with anything you had said. Fact is, I know that I dont know what I am doing, which is why I'm here. I was just trying to let everybody know what information I had, and what I was doing, so that the problems could be sorted out. Im at the steep end of a learning curve here.

[stainless1911]

My best accuracy was with 5.1 gn, but I cant take that seriously because it wasnt until I got your cases that I saw an improvement in leading. That was several weeks later. Since I got the best accuracy in the middle of the Lyman chart, I figured I was doing it right.

[geargnasher]

I had similar results, best accuracy with medium pistol powders at medium velocity. However, that isn't the best situation for WDWW alloy, but you were running pressures up high enough to make it work out ok with correctly sized boolits. Again, if you want to run the 231, at least try going back down to 4.5 and use air-cooled alloy (AFTER you get your new expander, of course!). Correct boolit fit will take care of most of the leading, but balancing chamber pressure to the alloy is also very important to accuracy and prevention of lead deposits. With a short barrel, you may be best served with HS6 and WDWW going the speed of sound, or maybe with Titegroup and soft range scrap tumble-lubed in liquid Alox and going out the muzzle at 750 fps., it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish balanced with how well the individual gun cooperates with your efforts in achieving it.

Gear

[stainless1911]

Well I am trying to develop a really accurate round that I can also use for rapid fire and some tactical SD training. I also plan on carrying these rounds in my primary SD gun on a daily basis, so I still want the round to hit hard if needed. I dont want to practice thousands of rounds with one load, and then carry a different one for self defense. An accurate hard hitting self defense round seems like a good target to shoot for.

[geargnasher]

Take it for what it's worth, but my advice would be to carry a quality factory SD ammo for SD purposes, practice with it occasionally, and work up a cast load of similar recoil/point-of-impact for practice. If you can control the recoil under rapid-fire, try using your WDWW with a high-pressure lube, like White Label Carnauba Red, and use Alliant Blue Dot worked up pretty hot. BD needs pressure to get a good burn and keep a clean chamber, and your home-made lube formula might not be up to the task when you get over 30K PSI, which you will at the top end of safe loads with BD.

The reason I say carry factory ammo isn't the "Ayoob paranoia", it's a matter of sheer reliablility. Your pistol was designed to operate with jacketed ammo, and as you now know, loaded diameter is smaller and chamber fouling potentially less than when shooting lubed lead boolits. Would you trust your life to your handloaded lead right now? I do in several guns, but they've been proven over and over again under all kinds of conditions. I'll never be convinced that the M&P .40 I have is 100% reliable with lead, your gun may prove to be different, and I hope it does.

The reason I recommend Blue Dot and hot loads is that your point of impact will be similar to factory jacketed loads, or at least my gun shot that way. My gun shot about 4-6" low at 25 yards with medium-to-fast powders unless I was loading them so light they barely cycled the action, but shot dead-on with higher charges of Blue Dot. I'd start with published load data and work up until it burns clean but stop before you go over book max or if you see overpressure signs. Compare with factory stuff using your "Wrist Chronograph" and see what happens.

Gear

[stainless1911]

If I go with HS-6 WDWW, how much charge should I use. I have an OAL of 1.140

And If I were to try to copycat the Winchester PDX-1 JHP 165gn, what should I do? I like those rounds in my gun, they feed perfectly, they shoot straight, and I have shot them into and through different things, sometimes recovering the bollets, and have been very impressed with the results. I think I will continue to carry these PDX-1 rounds for SD. I have noticed that they do flatten the primers though, that raises some questions.