Single Action revolvers for self-defense?

[Texas by God]

My nightstand gun is a .357 Blackhawk with Critical Defense ammo. Six for sure. Best,Thomas.

[Texas by God]

Well, I read every post. And the Blackhawk is still in the nightstand. Once in the late 70's I cleared the bowling pin table in 4.5 seconds with my Old Model .41 Blackhawk. Only once. Love me some single actions. The aforementioned black powder effect would apply for my .54 Plains Pistol as well.... That said; an 870 12ga with #4 buck is beside the bed except during bird season when my 1909 97 Win fills in. And the essential AR loaded with 30 .223 soft points is in the closet! This has been a fun thread. Best, Thomas.

[johnson1942]

we had a active gang of thieves around here up until last week when they they got caught. we live in the country and they tried to get my son's pickup truck. the alarm went off and i ran out of the house with my 45 long colt open top 1872 uberti colt in my hand but in my pocket was my small nice light weight ruger 38 special.the colt 45 was for serious no doubt hit them hard and put them down and the ruger was for close work. they made it to the road before i could get to them. i would not have shot any of them unless they pointed a gun at me but i would have put holes in their car if they werent so fast getting out of my place. two guns are better than one and the first can be a single action if you have a backup.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I can carry anything I want, I choose the Colt's SAA almost all the time. There are several nice 1911's in my safe, they tend to stay there. The key to choosing what you carry is you're confidence to hit with it when the chips are down. I choose the Colt's SAA.

[johnson1942]

you said it right silver jackhammer. my open top is like my right hand, and if the ammo runs out i got my back up in my pocket.

[rintinglen]

None of these would be my first choice, but any of them would do. The 44 special in the pancake-style holster actually hides fairly well under a vest or light jacket. That 7.5 inch Single 7 would be fine out to as far as I can reasonably expect to hit with a hand gun. It is very, very accurate.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

My advice is do not let nostalgia kill you, and there is no such thing as taking too much ammunition to a gun fight only not enough.

A lot of good advice in this thread, but J.V. Gelder's line about not letting nostalgia get you killed really hits home for me. While I do still own an love my SA revolvers I haven't concealed carried any in a while now. Only while hunting and riding in easily accessed open carry holsters. My Vaquero worked for when it was the only handgun I owned, but now I own a few more modern guns that seem better suited for this ever increasing crazy world.


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[dverna]

A lot of good advice in this thread, but J.V. Gelder's line about not letting nostalgia get you killed really hits home for me. While I do still own an love my SA revolvers I haven't concealed carried any in a while now. Only while hunting and riding in easily accessed open carry holsters. My Vaquero worked for when it was the only handgun I owned, but now I own a few more modern guns that seem better suited for this ever increasing crazy world.


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Agree 100%. The SA will do if that is the only choice you have...but it remains one of the worst choices as a carry gun. Glad to see you changed your mind.

I went through the same process but I started with 1911's. After a few years and some real training, I realized the Glock was a superior carry gun. When the adrenaline is pumping, the last thing I need is a 3 lb trigger. Shooting 2" groups at 25 yards is great but not needed to address a threat. Having a high capacity and/or quick reload may never be needed but what if it is? That alone makes the SA a non starter.

BTW, for those who can afford it, taking a good SD training course is a real eye opener. Most people are poor pistol shots and many have never performed under pressure....even if it just shooting paper targets that cannot move or shoot back. I was fortunate to have an instructor at the Front Sight course who worked as a contractor for diplomatic protection and "other things". The insights of someone who is not an armchair commando are enlightening.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Defaulting to a high cap is the worst solution to a sentimental longing to be a better pistol shot.

I've been to many week long courses that are more favourably shot with a high cap pistol. In the real world 2 things that don't matter are magazine capacity and speed in reloading. In my experience of over 30 years law enforcement working homicide, officer involved shootings, firearms instructions, SWAT, what matters mechanically is a good trigger, a big bullet and clear sights which are zeroed.

Sentimental longing or wistful affection for the ability to keep ones wits when everyone else is losing theirs is not disentangled with the commonly marketed high cap but rather with regular practice.

Even government is running high round count courses and turning out nubees with high cap guns calibrated down to their ability to pass a timed course one a year. We have too many examples of protracted shootings which leave us concluding again and again the high rate of missing and minor caliber hits does not substitute for regular practice hitting with a major caliber.

[Greg S]

It is a give and take. Coming from my background I would say no but that is from years of work in the mItaly and LE. Followup shots are slower ect.... As a private citizen, daily carry with the statistics of 2-4 rounds per encounter, an individual is alot better prepare then someone w/out and I the hands of someone well versed in its operation they are a formidable weapon. I think to each their own as I carry aSA in the woods for four legged predators and if need be.two legged if the need arises. Better than holding a Johnson but my splits will be alot slower. I'm completely comfortable with a semi or DA wheel gun or 2.

[tdoyka]

1 shot, 1 kill.

my drill sgt told me that along time ago. so i carry my ruger sbh all the time. i had a .40s&w in beretta m96 and a 45acp in spr armory 1911(i should have kept that one), but i like a SA.

[Texantothecore]

I carry .45 colt SA and am quite certain that the first round will hit inside a 6 inch circle at defense distances.

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[Walkingwolf]

Look at all the rounds fired in the Miami shootout, in the end it was only a few well placed shots that ended it. The FBI, and some other tactical aficionados think that spending more money, throwing more lead are more important than sound tactics, and accuracy. It is just my opinion, with all respect to the agents, that no agent needed to die that day. Well placed rifle shots at a reasonable distance would have ended it quickly.

What this has to do with SA revolvers with slow loading is that it forces the carrier to focused on well placed shots using tactics, and cover. SA revolvers with their longer barrels and SAO with crisp triggers tend to be more accurate. Especially at distances that are a disadvantage to spray, and pray shooters. Up close they the plow handle well balanced revolver is quick to place an accurate shot in the noggin ending the fight immediately.

There are many instances of gun fights where they eventually end with a head shot. The most recent that I come back to is Michael Brown, it is a classic educational shooting. I don't remember how many misses, but out six misses only two rounds could finally stop him. When Darren finally shot him in the head Brown's advance was ended. The other lesson is don't put yourself in a fight if it can be avoided. I certainly would not get close to a danger like DW, and the SA did. I am reminded of a OCer in a market in Virginia who stopped a armed robbery with a single action revolver, he used cover, and accuracy to kill the armed robber who had already shot the clerk.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Agent Dove made a well placed shot early on however the high velocity lightweight minor caliber hollow point stopped short of a wound tract that would have stopped Platt from going on to shoot the other agents. A single action with a solid boolit calibrated to something beginning with a .4 was what was needed. Same old story we've heard time and time again.

We had a guy ambush officers, he killed 2 and the BG's plastic jammed. Officer #3 went hands on with the BG, officer #4 went up and plugged BG with a HP. The HP skipped under the BG's skin around his ribs. BG pulled out a wheel gun and killed officer #3 and #4.

Wheel guns with solid boolits calibrated to something that begins with a .4 is what is needed but I think we're never going to learn what the old school taught us decades ago.

[Walkingwolf]

What was needed was rifles, and backup from Miami-Dade. Failure of communications, not being prepared, flying by the seat of the pants. They knew well ahead that they were dealing with very dangerous criminals. The positioning of the vehicles, and the decision to make the stop in a populated neighborhood were poor. The FBI was just plain inexperienced compared to urban departments that deal with dangerous criminals daily. I say this with all due respect to the agents, the failure came from above.

We learned after losing a deputy to a gun shot that all the departments had to work together. This operation would not have taken place without cooperation from the locals. There numerous simular situations that have taken place where the local, or state engaged a chase, drove until the bad guys crashed or gave up. Then when the shootout took place they had tactical advantage.

Rather than openly admit to the mistake the FBI decided to blame it on the ammo, instead of looking at their own failures.

But yes they would have been better served with hunting handgun ammo than hollow points. A lesson the early G-men learned, and fueled the 38 super, and the 38-44. There is also no reason that agents who are typically dressed in sport coats should be carrying snub nose, the greater accuracy of at least four inches is need for anything that is not very close range.

BTW my carry varies, but this week it has mostly been a model 64 four inch loaded with 1000fps wadcutters, in a shoulder holster. On my right hip I was carrying my 51 navy conversion in 38 spl loaded with SWC in a Threepersons style holster. If I knew I was going to engage a pair of bankrobbers I would probably get my hands on a LAW rocket launcher.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I worked with a dispatcher who was working in the Metro Dade for local law enforcement during the incident, she the FBI didn't tell them anything and the dispatchers had no idea it was the FBI involved in the shooting when the reports were coming in.

The point relevant to this forum is how us in local law enforcement were using .35" bores, swing out cylinders and inadequate ammo for duty because of an FBI speed qualification course but our guns failed regularly to stop felons on the street and local law enforcement officers were losing fights and no one cared until this happened to the FBI. Before the Platt and Mattox shooting local government politicians accused us of watching too much TV when we said we needed something more that .38/.357's. Our requests for rifles were rejected on the same grounds.

[Blackwater]

We carry handguns simply because anything larger, like rifle or shotgun, would be too big and too inconvenient for daily carry. But STOPPING an aggressor (or aggressors) is the whole point of CCW. That being so, it really makes the most sense to carry a caliber that's a well-proven "stopper," and that tends strongly to be some caliber whose first number in its caliber is a .4. I usually carry my little .380 everywhere I go, but that's mostly because it gets so hot in the summer, and my little Taurus conceals just fine in a pants pocket. The #1 rule of a gunfight is to "Have a gun." Caliber CAN be important, but the practical question is what you CAN carry, and many things can affect that question. I'm not entirely satisfied with my little .380 in any respect other than its trigger pull (best and most controllable of a number of models when I bought it) and its easy concealability. Sometimes, we're just not in the mood to carry a bigger gun, or it'd be inappropriate for social reasons. But my little .380 is there always.

When wearing any sort of jacket or vest, I normally carry my Kimber Lwt. Compact .45, and it's a pleasure to carry, with its aluminum frame and my Andrews IWB "McDaniel" holster. When carrying the bigger gun, I always have the little .380 as a spare or backup.

But several folks I know have SA's either for their EDC or for their night stands, and I have NO problem with a SA for SD at all! As has been noted, even if put upon by a group, there's always one leading the pack, and if you take that one out with a single shot, the rest usually disperse pretty quickly. And too, not many want to proceed when they see a big, gaping hole in your gun. So a big caliber SA has served for self defense for over a century, and though there have been subsequent developments that may on rare occasions be "nice" to have, the core purpose of self defense is pretty handily handled by a SA large caliber handgun today, and likely always will be.

As several have noted, comfort and confidence really DO count in a defensive situation. If you're sure you can place a bullet well, you probably won't have to shoot more than once, so I agree that high cap mags are that relevant to real SD situations. It'll ALWAYS be accuracy that counts MOST! And SA's tend for most folks to point "naturally," so if a hasty shot is needed, the odds go up for a positive result for the defender, and it matters little what KIND of gun you have. Just that you DO have it, and CAN use it EFFECTIVELY. That's the whole point of CCW, and all the theorizing that sells new guns really doesn't matter. They're NOT gonna' be there when you need support. It's you and the bad guy, and the rest will just observe, if that. SA's will do what needs to be done 99 44/100% of the time, and the rest? You're probably in such deep kimshe that high caps, etc. won't make NEARLY as much difference as your ability to think you way through such situations. The folks who have that kind of presence of mind and situational control are not numerous, so .... again, high caps aren't nearly what many try to sell them for being.

Police, who may be likely to get pinned down or come across "gang" situations might benefit from high cap mags, but .... the ordinary citizen probably won't, unless they take a wrong turn and wind up accidentally in a hostile environment. There are still some places in Savannah where police don't generally go except in force, but that has been greatly reduced in recent years. But even there, most gang members can't shoot well, and many still hold their guns sideways, and even shove them forward as they pull the trigger, thinking this makes the bullet "go faster!" Most crooks are dumb. You don't have to be, and should think ahead. And carrying an EDC and having your CCW license is a big part of that. Then, whatever you can HIT with is all you'll probably ever need.

[Lefty Red]

Since we are talking about the Miami Dale Shootout.....

https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ


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[Walkingwolf]

Since we are talking about the Miami Dale Shootout.....

https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ


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All of these videos, and analysis ignore the preparation for capturing these two criminals. That is where the mistakes are, I was enthusiastic in the beginning of his video thinking he was going to expand on these mistakes, but alas it went the same direction it always does. The main failure was lack of cooperation with Miami-Dade, after that it was not planning a take down with proper equipment, and strategy. That is why I said fly by the seat of their pants.

This shooting is unlikely to happen today, as there is better cooperation, and rifles in the cars. A tactical team would have also been on standby, whether an FBI team, or a Miami-Dade team. The supervisors/trainers were responsible for the inadequate equipment. I don't know if speed loaders would have changed the situation much as the event was controlled by adrenaline, and this caused probably the lack of hits that would have stopped it early.

We have an advantage, or disadvantage however you want to look at it. Most that carry a SA revolver are not going to get in a shoot out, I can't run fast, but I can enough distance to get the heck out of there. No matter what a person carries if they are not LE, unless in personal danger have the option of not engaging. Most cases where we have to engage all the tactical equipment would be a non issue.

Most firefights stop a threat in just a couple rounds, no matter how many are fired. That was the case with Michael Brown, 12 shots fired, the final two stopped the threat. Stopping the threat sooner is better than stopping the threat later. Just my opinion, and here is where the SA has an advantage. Most of us know we have to stop the threat early.

[Lefty Red]

All of these videos, and analysis ignore the preparation for capturing these two criminals. That is where the mistakes are, I was enthusiastic in the beginning of his video thinking he was going to expand on these mistakes, but alas it went the same direction it always does. The main failure was lack of cooperation with Miami-Dade, after that it was not planning a take down with proper equipment, and strategy. That is why I said fly by the seat of their pants.

This shooting is unlikely to happen today, as there is better cooperation, and rifles in the cars. A tactical team would have also been on standby, whether an FBI team, or a Miami-Dade team. The supervisors/trainers were responsible for the inadequate equipment. I don't know if speed loaders would have changed the situation much as the event was controlled by adrenaline, and this caused probably the lack of hits that would have stopped it early.

We have an advantage, or disadvantage however you want to look at it. Most that carry a SA revolver are not going to get in a shoot out, I can't run fast, but I can enough distance to get the heck out of there. No matter what a person carries if they are not LE, unless in personal danger have the option of not engaging. Most cases where we have to engage all the tactical equipment would be a non issue.

Most firefights stop a threat in just a couple rounds, no matter how many are fired. That was the case with Michael Brown, 12 shots fired, the final two stopped the threat. Stopping the threat sooner is better than stopping the threat later. Just my opinion, and here is where the SA has an advantage. Most of us know we have to stop the threat early.

I would have to say I got something completely different from the video than you did.

I know Mr Harrel did talk about the lack of equipment the agents used and the tactics used. I think he said about the only thing done right was where they stopped the bad guys.

But we all have our own take on the subject. And I respect different views from my own.

Lefty


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