Winchester 70 or Browning A-Bolt

[waksupi]

Doc, the short mags ARE barrel burners.

[fireball168]

I still see WSSM Model 70's around, usually at the Gander Mountains for $399 or less on clearance. The Brownings are generally $100 more and are actually a little bit more common these days.

Three years ago, you could pick them up for $300 or less regularly, either one.

If you've got a Gander Mountain around, might be worth having them do their "locator" to find one priced right for you.

I don't see them often at the Cabela's in the four state region around here.

They are relatively popular in Indiana as a base for rebarreling into one of the various 358/375 WSSM wildcats as a "Pistol Caliber Rifle" due to the case length.

I've had a pretty good time with the 25 WSSM versions, as much as I like the 257 and 25-06, the featherweight WSSM makes for a nice small and light packing rifle. I probably don't have over 500 rounds through either of them, but throat erosion monitored with a Stoney Point gauge - doesn't appear to be any worse than a 25-06/257 Roy.

[Doc_Stihl]

Doc, the short mags ARE barrel burners.

Sure they are, but designed to be is pure hogwash. There are plenty of cartridges out there that are hard on barrels. The WSSM's might be right at the front of the line even.

The brass is the only thing scaring me off the WSSM's at the moment. Thick THICK necks and the need to push them hard to get a seal is the only drawback I don't want to face. The 7mm SAUM in either a Ruger 77 or Remington 7 is looking real good.

[old turtle]

When it comes to any of these Mags. I tend to feel unless you are going to Africa, most standard rounds are fine. No amount of high speed throat burning, powder consuming round will help unless you can correctly place the boolit. As was recently stated in the Handloader (I think) the author could rember when a 30-40 was good enough for elk and a 30-30 for mule deer. But then again I am old, opinionated hard headed and set in my ways.

[Doc_Stihl]

The beauty part of the new short mags is space. These small cartridges lend well to reduced loads and superb accuracy. 6MM BR is a short cartridge. Doesn't wear the magnum badge but it's renowned for it's barrel life and inherent accuracy. Way smaller than a 243 but outperforms it in some regards.

[crawfobj]

You guys don't know what you're missing in the A-Bolt. I for one love the tang safety, and they just fit me. I have 2 - a Eurobolt 7 Mag and 30-06 stainless stalker and both shoot lights out. The 7 mag accounted for both of my bull elk (flatlander self-guided on public land). If only I can find the right deal on a .243 stalker.

[HiVelocity]

Okay, here's my .02 worth.......

I've tried the short magnums and wasn't impressed.

1- You have to buy proprietary brass, and or ammo for it.

2- It kicked like hell; check your fillings before firing.

3- Proved nothing over conventional calibers.

4- Poor trade-in, resale value.

Just food for thought.

HV

[white eagle]

the poor shortie's just don't get any respect
just trying to reinvent the wheel

[Uncle R.]

A-bolts are usually very accurate rifles - I've shot dozens of them and they all had nice triggers and shot very well. It's unlikely I'll ever buy one though. Why? Because of what I consider serious design flaws. The 60 degree bolt lift is a negative because of the corresponding weak camming for chambering, cocking and primary extraction functions. The tang safety is less positive than a striker locking 3-position safety. They're fine for shotguns but I don't care for trigger locking safeties on rifles. Probably worst is the unhardened camming surfaces for cocking and primary extraction. With a soft steel reciever (except for the locking lug insert) the A-Bolt is NOT an action that's designed to last for generations and wear out several barrels.

They sure are pretty though...

Read Otteson.

My favorite bolt rifles are 721s and early 700s equipped with the "defective" triggers and bolt-locking safety. I also very much like model 70s both pre-64 and post 1970, and commercial 98s such as FN sporters or Mark Xs. I consider Browning A-bolts and Ruger 77s along with any 60 degree rotation action to be lesser designs.
Uncle R.

[izzyjoe]

i'm with old turtle on this one, we needs no stink'n magnum's.

[Heavy lead]

Well myself I've had an A Bolt and it was a good rifle, but I just couldn't nuzzle up to it and finally sold it. I love model 70's but have been disappointed about 40% of the time (yes, I did the math), I pretty much am a Remington 700 man because of it (100% shooters), however I have a new Model 70 out of the new North Carolina plant and that thing simply is the best 70 I've had, a featherweight in 30-06. The good thing about the 223 WSSM is it has a 1/10 twist (with I could get one in that twist in a 22-250) that would let you really make some heavier bullets run good, also keep the velocity down in the mid 3000's, don't see why that would kill a barrel any faster than a 22-250 at 3700 fps with a 55. I surely do like the way those new Browning X-Bolts feel though, had a couple in my hands and the new stock design is sweet, very nice, also the new safety device on the bolt that allows the safety which locks the bolt to remain on while you depress a seperate button on the top of the bolt to open it is a great feature. As soon as I find one in a .25-06, I'll have one.

[Fishman]

Could somebody explain to me why a 243 Wssm burning similar charges of the same powder as a .243 will burn out a barrel? I am thinking this may be another case of Internet groupthink gone wrong.

Back on topic. The Browning a-bolt super short action sure is lively and well balanced. Makes my long action rifles feel like a club.

[GabbyM]

Okay, here's my .02 worth.......

I've tried the short magnums and wasn't impressed.

1- You have to buy proprietary brass, and or ammo for it.

2- It kicked like hell; check your fillings before firing.

3- Proved nothing over conventional calibers.

4- Poor trade-in, resale value.

Just food for thought.

HV

Increased recoil is caused by the larger .535" case head placing more force on the bolt face. In addition to pressures over 62,000 psi which may result in higher pressure at the muzzle for greater jet effect plus all that much more PSI on the bolt face.

May make sense in 14 pound bench guns but with a two round magazine and poor shooting fun in a hunting rifle the short mags are about as dumb ass an idea as they come.

The fact that Madison Avenue can sell plastic razors with five blades proves they can sell anything. Realizing many of you here use those multi bladed plastic razors to shave in the morning. Well you may want to look into a old fashioned double edge. They are getting hard to find.

[GabbyM]

Could somebody explain to me why a 243 Wssm burning similar charges of the same powder as a .243 will burn out a barrel? I am thinking this may be another case of Internet groupthink gone wrong.

Back on topic. The Browning a-bolt super short action sure is lively and well balanced. Makes my long action rifles feel like a club.

4,000 psi and in addition to that I've never had greater than an 800 round count on a 243 Win barrel so that's not much of a comparison. IMO the 243 Win needs to die. I’ll keep shooting them as I’m all up invested in the caliber. But I won’t recommend the 243 Win to anyone. Since I’m not getting paid to do so.

[c3d4b2]

Could somebody explain to me why a 243 Wssm burning similar charges of the same powder as a .243 will burn out a barrel?

The estimated life will be the same. The .243 case is based on the 308 Winchester case. If you calculate the estimated barrel life with the other cartridges based on the 308 case you will see that the barrel life increases as the caliber increases. There is a note on 6 mm br site with a barrel life calculator. If you use this calculator for the different calibers (holding the other variable constant) you receive the following:


Metric_____Calb.___Bar Life
6. mm_____0.243___1862
6.5 mm____0.255___2347
7. mm_____0.28____2847
7.62 mm___0.3_____2934
(Note:These numbers differ slightly than what I have experienced, but they are close.)

The barrel life calculator may be found at
http://www.6mmbr.com
/BlogSept2005.html

[Fishman]

That calculator is really interesting. It lends credence to gabbym's statement that 4k extra psi negatively affects barrel life. How much I don't know. The so called "heat of explosion" is also an unknown. And also this is the creation of a guy using what knowledge he has to try and answer a question lots of people have.

Thanks a lot for the info.

[Fishman]

Increased recoil is caused by the larger .535" case head placing more force on the bolt face. In addition to pressures over 62,000 psi which may result in higher pressure at the muzzle for greater jet effect plus all that much more PSI on the bolt face.

May make sense in 14 pound bench guns but with a two round magazine and poor shooting fun in a hunting rifle the short mags are about as dumb ass an idea as they come.

The fact that Madison Avenue can sell plastic razors with five blades proves they can sell anything. Realizing many of you here use those multi bladed plastic razors to shave in the morning. Well you may want to look into a old fashioned double edge. They are getting hard to find.

Why would increased bolt thrust increase recoil? Aren't the components of recoil simply mass on both sides of the base of the case and velocity? Recoil of the short mags is supposed to be less as they are supposed to use less powder for the same velocity due to being more efficient. Less powder charge equals less mass going down the barrel and less recoil. Now I am not saying I buy this argument either but subjectively to me the recoil of the short mag abolt is very similar to the recoil of the ruger in .243 win I owned.

[tcrocker]

I voted for the Winchester 70. I got one of the new production guns, and I realy like it. The trigger is the shocking things. It is pure butter, It is buy far the best factory trigger I have ever felt. I will have all my triggers lightened and smothed or just replace it with a after market one but not this one it's a great trigger. Stock fit and fill are great cherckering looks nice and clean.
i have the featherlight so at the rainge I'll get about 3 or 4 shots and it'll start to drift so I let it cool a little and she's right back on the money. Here's a pic.
http://

[GabbyM]

Why would increased bolt thrust increase recoil? Aren't the components of recoil simply mass on both sides of the base of the case and velocity? Recoil of the short mags is supposed to be less as they are supposed to use less powder for the same velocity due to being more efficient. Less powder charge equals less mass going down the barrel and less recoil. Now I am not saying I buy this argument either but subjectively to me the recoil of the short mag abolt is very similar to the recoil of the ruger in .243 win I owned.

Larger area with the same pressure on it will create a greater force in foot pounds. I read that in a gun article someplace and tend to believe it although can’t give you a mathematical formula to show it. There may be truth to Winchesters argument that with the same bullet at the same velocity you can use less powder in the WSM or WSSM for less recoil. Comparison between 243 WSSM and a 243 Weatherby Mag would be more fair. You hear lots of recoil complaints from the short magnum shooters but to be fair you’d need to shoot the same gun in a belted magnum to get a comparison.

In the case of the 243 WSSM comparing to the 243 Win. They are very close so I would not think they’d be much different in felt recoil. Different weight guns and stock layout could overcome the difference. The 243 WSSM is advertised to beat the 243 Win by about 200 fps so that would be more recoil right there. I have two rifles chambered in 243 Ackley Improved so can’t really throw rocks at the 243 WSSM. The WSM cartridges are another ball game. In short if you are a big fan of the belted magnums the WSM would be worth a look. I don’t believe half of what FN Winchester prints here. http://www.winchesterguns.com/produc...yitem.asp?id=5
Plus it holds two less rounds in the magazine but again so do the belted magnums. Perhaps that’s why Winchester does not even catalogue a 243 WSSM for the Featherweight. Of course the manufacture of the FN M70 is not the same company as Winchester ammo.

A 243 Win has an issue with barrel heat causing microscopic size cracks in the first few inches of the bore in as little as 200 rounds with some loads. If a 243 WSSM would shoot at the same velocity as the 243 Win and not burn the barrel as badly I’d be all for it. I bought a 234 AI reamer when I started re barreling my 243’s. Plan is to use loads worked up over a chronograph to match but not exceed 243 Win velocity in hopes of having less pressure and longer barrel life. But they aren’t shot in a lab I just take them out and blast away. I’m shooting cast bullets with delight and a few 85, 87 and 95 grain bullets while I was shooting 55 and 70 grain mostly in the original barrels. If I had it to do all over again I’d get set up with 6mm BR. For long range I’d look at the 6.5mm Creedmoor. The 243 WSSM did not exist when I started with 243 AI or I may have gone that rout if it weren’t for the fact the round won’t fit in my old rifles. If equipment were equally available the 243 WSSM would make sense as a choice over the 243 Win. As long as you could live with two less rounds in the magazine. I suppose the 300 WSM compares favorably to the 300 Win Mag but I don’t get excited over either one.

Noticed just yesterday that Savage now list there stainless steel rifle in both 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem. I really like the Creedmoor round and hope it takes hold and is offered by more companies. Like an FN Model 70 Featherweight in 6.5mm.

[Uncle R.]

The firearm itself is a closed system and the case head diameter has no effect on recoil. The maximum pressure has no effect on recoil except as it contributes to bullet and gas exit velocity. Recoil for a gun of given weight is determined by the weight and velocity of the ejecta. The residual gas pressure at the muzzle can be a big factor because it causes a rocket effect of the powder gas which exits the muzzle at considerably higher speed than the bullet. That's why muzzle brakes can work so well on high-velocity rifles, and why super duper magnums with big charges of slow burning powder will kick much harder than "normal" cartridges even though the actual bullet speed is only slightly higher. The magnums have more ejecta weight because there's more powder to push out the barrel. In addition, the very slow burning powders of the big magnum cases give higher muzzle pressure which increases recoil even more as the powder leaves the barrel at a higher velocity. Those differences in muzzle pressure are often overlooked when considering recoil but they can be a big factor. Higher muzzle pressure is one of the reasons that short barrelled rifles seem to kick more even though the velocity of the bullet is less.