45 cal bbl what pressure?

[Jetwrench]

I have an opima break barrell 45 cal 209 inline. If I were to take the breach plug out and machiene a screw in chamber 45 long colt, or 45/70. the gun is good for at max 150gr Bp load. So as long as i stay in bp pressuresI should be ok. it should be no different at least i think to having that load loose (in the berrel) What do you all think? not looking for a barnburner here just a little fun.

[Nobade]

Not sure if you are contemplating building a smokeless powder muzzle loader or converting your rifle to fire fixed ammunition?

[Jetwrench]

I want to use Black, or pyro, 777 or some such. I want to use a primed shell. Insert into the breach, close the breach and then proceed with normal muzzel loading as if I were seating over a 209 and loose powder. Sam Fadala did this on page 180 in his book; The Complete Blackpowder Handbook. may be that later I MIGHT try low pressure smokeless loads, but I dont kow. Jetwrench

[Chicken Thief]

Errrrr you lost me there!
You want to make a frontstuffer with a shell holding the primer instead of just applying the primer as is? Why?

Seems to me like trying to convert a diesel to run on gas.

[Jon K]

You want to shoot a cartridge...buy a cartridge gun!

Jon

[Jetwrench]

ok Ill try to explane better, sorry but I have always had trouble when it comes to that. So here we go, first Chicken Thief, the reason for the shell is I have never done it. Saw it in the afore mentioned book, I thought it was very interesting, ( I am one of those folks that just has to fiddle with things ) and it would be easy to go from just a shell holding a primer to a shell holding the charge and the bullet. I would think a black podwer cartrige would be the same pressure as a loose charge of the same size. So in the end there is no real reason for it other than "can it be done" I just find it interesting thats all.

Jon K, I have an H&R 45-70 BC. But that is not the point. I just saw this in the book that I mentioned and I am just interested. I could just use the 45-70 but am just interested in doing it this way. I am disabled now, since Dec of 08, and dont have the money anymore to run down and buy new guns. I have to save save save, for any new toys. So not enough money and too much time. If I still made the money I used to make I would have a Sharpes and things like that, but thats not the case, so I just dream and try to do what I can. So if you guys think its a bone headed thing to try, tell me, just tell me why also so I can learn from this. I really respect the opinion of you guys and all the people on this board. this place is the best place I have ever found on the web. Jetwrench

[Lead pot]

I think it's a boner especially with smokeless Jetwrench.
If you are going to talk smokeless maybe the guys on the single shot forum might come up with a boner answer.

[wgr]

i can see maybe getting away with black powder but no way would i try smokeless

[Cannoneer]

Here is a suggestion. You already have a .47.70 BC. Put a primed, unloaded case in the chamber and load powder and ball, slug, whatever thru the muzzle and find out if that combination will work. I have reason to beleave that you should use a case that has been fired from that chamber and has not been resized. Spent primers can be removed with out resorting to sizing using a punch or nail of the correct size.

Enjoy, but be safe. Good Luck.

[Jetwrench]

Lead Pot, WGR, the more I think about it the the more I tend to agree with you. I dont know what pressure the bp barrel would take safely and I really dont want to loose any parts. I was still thinking about black powder but I dont know yet.

Cannoneer, I thought about that, But here is my fear. I have read that any air space between the black powder and the bullet can cause a wallnut in the barrel and I am worried that I might not get the bullet all the way down in the 45-70 case. So that is why I was thinking about the muzzel loader and a smaller case like 45acp or 45 colt where the powder charge would be longer than the case. So that is why I came here instead of going to sigle shot forum I figured you guys would know more about bp being compressed and such, the smokeless thought was more a thought than a plan, I see it is not well recived so I will play it safe and stay away from that. I guess I could cut down the 45-70 case or make an expander to make the case as big as it can be and still chamber so the bullet would be easier to get seated all the way down. Thank you all for all for your input and advice I really value your advice, feel free to tell me more, thanks Jetwrench

[tacklebury]

Have a machine shop duplicate a full size .45-70 shell, then drill a 1/32" hole down through the center of it and machine in a primer pocket on the bottom. Your powder will sit on top of the false shell and ball will seat on top of it. No danger. If you want to pull it out and shove in a real .45-70 shell, just make sure you push out the ball. lol Or have em make the primer pocket sized for a 209 primer, then you can use real muzzle loading primers too.

[Jetwrench]

I have a 9 x19 Grizzly lathe which is the only reason this will be possible for me. I think what Ill do is make a 45-70 shell out of brass with a powder chamber about the size of a 45acp give or take. Ill match the size of the chamber to what I want for a min powder charge. The reason for a powder chamber is to get an effective seal when the charge is fired just like a cartridge does, no blow back. I would really like someone to point me in the right direction as far as does the load need to be compressed if so how much compression is needed. What is better a 209 or a large mag rifle primer. Thanks guys for taking the time to help with this little project. I am really greatful. Jetwrench

[Lead pot]

I have a 9 x19 Grizzly lathe which is the only reason this will be possible for me. I think what Ill do is make a 45-70 shell out of brass with a powder chamber about the size of a 45acp give or take. Ill match the size of the chamber to what I want for a min powder charge. The reason for a powder chamber is to get an effective seal when the charge is fired just like a cartridge does, no blow back. I would really like someone to point me in the right direction as far as does the load need to be compressed if so how much compression is needed. What is better a 209 or a large mag rifle primer. Thanks guys for taking the time to help with this little project. I am really greatful. Jetwrench

I know two guys that make reducing bushings for a .45-120 cartridge rifle.
They made a bushing to take up the extra room in the case abd silver soldered that bushing in the case so it wont move for a reduced load of black powder in that large case. But they dont load smokeless using those cases.

[longbow]

Basically what you are talking about is Pope loading... except if I understand, you want to muzzleload powder as well. No reason it shouldn't work but as others have said, I would stick with BP or BP substitute.

[Nobade]

I have a C.Sharps 1875 rifle chambered for 45-70 that I do this with frequently. It has a rather long throat, and won't shoot paper patched bullets accurately using fixed ammunition. A empty case holds 75 grains to the mouth, so I muzzle load 90 grains to make sure I am past the throat and seat a bullet on top of it. That way I don't have to deal with the bullet getting torn up in the throat, and it shoots great.

But here's the deal. This rifle is designed to fire fixed ammunition. It is a quite strong action on the level of a Ruger #1. It is made to take the back thrust of a cartridge case being fired. Your Optima is not designed to take any breech thrust at all. With a breech plug and percussion cap (or 209 primer) the force hitting the standing breech is almost nothing. If you make it fire a cartridge case, it is going to be far in excess of what it is designed to take.

There are a few locked breech muzzle loading rifles out there like the Savage and the Ruger 77/50, but most will not be safe if loaded with a cartridge case instead of a cap. My advise is if you want to try Pope loading, just use your Handi rifle. It has a pretty short throat and won't take much more powder to work than fits in a case. If you don't want so much powder just pour a few cc's of cream 'o' wheat in after the powder to make sure you are clear of the chamber. This way when you get bored of doing it this way you haven't messed up a useful rifle. Plus this will give you an excuse to make a push through sizing die of .449" or whatever your barrel needs so you can make up bore size bullets to shoot.

Have fun, but be safe out there!

[Jetwrench]

Lead Pot, I have read about the bushings in the book Cartridge conversons, but I had forgot about it thanks for reminding me. That will help. Been thinking more about smokeless and the thing I cant get past is a cart over all min length, you must have an air space and with muzzel loading I cant think of a reliable way to get that air space So the smokeless part of this project is over.

Longbow, I am not familiar with Pope loading I will have to look it up. As far as smokeless I am not going to mess with that idea for the reason stated above.

Noblade, I am with you, I will research Pope loading. And I will leave the muzzle loader alone. I will do this in the handy rifle. I dont want to mess up the 45 muzzle loader, I like it I would miss it if it were gone.

Thanks guys your help is really wonderful. Jetwrench

[Nobade]

Pope style loading is just what I described above - load primed case, and pour in powder and bullet from the muzzle. Use a drop tube if you like.

Couple of things about black vs. smokeless. Black will bump up your bore sized bullet to groove size instantly and produce a good seal without flame cutting of the bullet. So you can load a bore size bullet that goes down with no resistance, and loads by the weight of the ramrod. Smokeless won't do this. If you try it, the powder won't light off properly and will flame cut your bullet and lead the barrel. The only way I know to muzzle load smokeless is to either use pre rifled bullets that you make with a short piece of the exact same barrel you are using on your rifle, or use sabots. As for powder charges, you simply choose a powder that is safe with a full case in the caliber you wanted to use. I.E. you have a 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader. You want to shoot it with smokeless. Well, you know a 45-70 which is a mostly straight case is safe with 50 gr. IMR 3031, to the base of the bullet. So you treat your 45 cal. muzzleloader like a caseless 45-70 and load a compressed charge of 50 gr. IMR 3031 and you're good to go. Thing is, what you want to do is going to have the bullet seated outside the case. So you are going to either need much more powder or COW filler to take up the space, so you'll need to find out what powder is safe as a compressed load in a 45-90 and use that. But the whole thing is a moot point if you use black powder. And not to mention you can get plenty of power and recoil from fixed ammo in a 45-70, so there really isn't any need to generate even more by doing this trick. Not to mention if you fire a cast lead plain base soft bullet at better than 2000 fps it'll lead the bore anyhow. The sabots might be fun to try, but personally I never did get them to shoot very accurately in any of my 45-70 rifles and decided they were a waste of time.

More to think about...

[Lead pot]

Lead Pot,So the smokeless part of this project is over.

Jetwrench

Good decision.

[Jetwrench]

Lead pot, yes I think there are too manny questions and not enough awnsers to suit me. I like to try new new things but ya gotta know when to say when, and that is where i am with smokeless.

Nobade, sorry I misspelled your handle eairler. You are right, more to think about.