My new-old Mannlicher-Schoenauer.....

[Harry O]

along with my old-old Mannlicher Schoenauer. They are both M-1910 models in 9,5x57 MS caliber. The top one is the new one (for me anyway). It is a conventional, full-length stock with a swinging-Lyman (Model 36) peepsight and double-set triggers. The lower one is the old one. It is a short-stock, takedown model with a swinging Lyman reproduction sight and a single trigger. The swinging peepsight is really neat. The bolt is rotated up, then pulled back (hitting the peepsight which swings out of the way), the case is ejected, then the bolt is pushed forward (hitting the peepsight which swings out of the way), picking up and chambering the next cartridge. The sight returns to its original position with springs and a ball bearing detent. The double-set triggers are neat, too. Pulling the front one is just about identical to the single trigger in the older one. Pulling the rear one first to set the double triggers makes the front one a hair trigger. I mean that it is really, really light.

I put the leather lace-on recoil pad on the old one because a 270gr bullet at 2,160fps from a 6-1/4lb rifle with a curved steel buttplate was brutal. It lowered the felt recoil to tolerable. Evidently someone who owned the newer one in the past had the same problem. They cut off the steel buttplate. It had a very old 1" thick rubber recoil pad on it. It was in poor shape and was cracking. I replaced it with a new 0.6" thick recoil pad and put another leather lace-on recoil pad on top of it to hide the fact that someone butchered the stock. By using the thinner recoil pad, the length-of-pull was not changed when the lace-on pad was added. The older one has a LOP that is really too long since I did not shorten the stock before adding the lace-on pad.

Anyway, I shot the newer one today and it is accurate. It is even more tolerable to shoot than the older one. I am not saying that it is easy, but it is better than tolerable.

The very first M-1910 in 9.5x57 MS I ever saw was in a museum. It was in the Storz home. The Storz family was a local family who made his fortune in beer in the late 1800's, early 1900's. He bought the gun and took it to Africa before WW1. He returned with dozens of game animal heads he had collected with the gun. They were stuffed and hung on the walls. In the center was the Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Interestingly, that gun also had a leather lace-on recoil pad on it. I do not know if it still had the steel buttplate underneath. I guess some things never change. The Storz museum closed down and everything in it was sold at auction many years ago. The gun was sold, too, but I could not afford it at the time.

I can use Lyman 375167 bullets for reduced loads. Anything over 1,500 to 1,600fps, though, and accuracy goes out the window. Nothing I have that has a gas-check will feed in this gun.

[Larry Gibson]

Very sweet indeed!!!!

Larry Gibson

[CALGOUGERS.NET]

Neat. I know someone that had the Greek military one. Ammo was a pain to find. The guns are quite uncommon also.

[Harry O]

Neat. I know someone that had the Greek military one. Ammo was a pain to find. The guns are quite uncommon also.

All it takes is money. The factory cartridges cost $5 to $10 EACH. So I make my own. I made a bunch of cases from .35 Whelen cases and some from 9.3x62 cases. Once formed and trimmed, they must be fireformed to finish filling out the shoulder. Other than that, reloading them is easy. A Hornady 270gr RN-SP, 46.0gr of IMR4064 and a heavy crimp.

[scrapcan]

Harry O,

I see you have added one more very nice item to the herd. Now you must write an extensive article on loading for this caliber. I had often thought this could be a fun one to work with.

[roysha]

Well I guess too many beers have flowed over the tongue and down the throat because I had completely forgotten about Storz beer. Long, long ago and far away!

You stated you formed the case from 35 Whelan and other brass, why did you not form from 8x57 brass? It would appear, from what I see, that it would be a rather straight forward neck expanding job by fire forming with a pistol powder and cornmeal.

Even though it is a sin, I truly envy you. I honestly can't think of any rifle I like more than the M-S, especially the MCAs. My brother has 5 of them in both rifle and carbine versions. I love shooting them because they handle so well.

[Harry O]

I don't use 8x57 Mauser for two reasons. First, it ends up shorter when done. That is not very important, but the other reason is. There is not enough shoulder on a formed 8x57 to hold the case back against the bolt while fireforming. When I tried this, I got the equivalent of 0.020" to 0.027" of excess headspace. Evidently the firing pin drove the case forward to the limit of the extractor before the case shoulder expanded enough to stop it.

I use the longer cases because when I form them, the shoulder is pushed back into the larger diameter part of the case. The shoulder is not fully formed, but there is enough there to hold the case back against the bolt until the shoulder fills out. Of course, I also have to cut them back since I am using longer cases. It is extra work, but worth it to have form fitting cases. I also adjust the forming die out so that there is just a little bit more force needed to close the bolt. After fireforming, I smoke the neck and adjust the forming die so it just bumps the formed shoulder. It is the equivalent of zero headspace.

For fireforming, I use 13 to 15gr of Red Dot or Bullseye, fill the rest of the case with filler, and press a wax plug into the end. For full loads, I have tried IMR4064, IMR3031, Norma N201, and XMP5744. The best for full power loads is 46.0gr of IMR4064 with a 270gr Hornady RN-SP. I have taken it up to 48.0gr and don't think that would ever be a problem, but 46.0gr is what was published in the Mannlicher Collectors Assn. IMR3031 and Norma N201 are too fast and are not as accurate as IMR4064. I use the XMP5744 for lighter lead loads with a hard cast Lyman 375167. Unfortunately, the point of impact is far different for the two loads.

[excess650]

Those are some nice rifles Harry O. I had only seen a couple of the MS 9.5s and one of them was a well used takedown.

The closest that I have is an old JP Sauer sporting rifle with DST and raised side panels on the sides of the stock. Its in 9x57, and I've made my cases from 8x57. When I tried to form them from 35 Whelen, they wouldn't chamber. Some of my cases split at the neck on the first firing, so probably needed to be annealed.

The bore in mine is worn beyond what will work with cast, so it gets jacketed only. I tired some .356" Hawk bullets 250gr?, but they didn't stabilize. I found that the 220gr Speer FN shot well over 4895, but coppered the barrel. It doesn't get shot much, but I really would like to have it rebored to 9.5mm so that I could shoot cast.

[Harry O]

In reading Ken Waters' articles on the 8x56 MS and 9x56 MS, they evidently used a case that was a little bit smaller than the 30-06 family of cases. He had to get special dies to size them down all the way to the base. It sounded like a lot of work. Also, evidently the bore/groove size was a little different from normal 9mm bore sizes.

The 9.5x57 MS is based on the easy to get 30-06 sized case. I have never had a 35 Whelan case crack on forming -- or since then. I use the .35 Whelan cases for a couple of reasons. I don't own a .35 Whelan, so there is no possibililty of trying to chamber a case in the wrong gun. Also, since it is closer to .375, the mouth has less expanding to do.

If your gun was rechambered and re-rifled to 9.5x57 MS, the chamber should clean up completely. I don't know where you would have it done or how much it would cost, but it sounds like a good plan.

The wood on both MS' that I have were refinished. Neither one was done badly, but no one would mistake them for original factory. They are original factory stocks, though. The number on the inside of the stock, the receiver, and the barrel is consistent on both. Also, the internal fitting is the best I have ever seen. It is like they were glass bedded, without the glass.

The bluing on both of them is in great condition at over 95%. I do not believe they were reblued since the light engraving on the top front of the receiver is intact, crisp, and clean on both of them. In addition, the bluing on the newer one is just starting to turn a uniform plum color.

[BarryinIN]

Beautiful rifles, both of them. I love those.

I passed up a Model 1962 M-S in 30-06 about 12 years ago because we couldn't get together on the price and I really wanted a full length stock in an M-S. Besides, I suspected that rifle in that caliber would pound me to death.
But I've regretted it ever since, and am not so picky anymore! Being picky is what caused me to have none at all. I look for one anytime I get a little money, but have had no success.

I'd like a 6.5 M-S, but almost think I'd take any caliber in order to get one just because the action is so danged interesting.

[dedeparis]

along with my old-old Mannlicher Schoenauer. They are both M-1910 models in 9,5x57 MS caliber. The top one is the new one (for me anyway). It is a conventional, full-length stock with a swinging-Lyman (Model 36) peepsight and double-set triggers. The lower one is the old one. It is a short-stock, takedown model with a swinging Lyman reproduction sight and a single trigger. The swinging peepsight is really neat. The bolt is rotated up, then pulled back (hitting the peepsight which swings out of the way), the case is ejected, then the bolt is pushed forward (hitting the peepsight which swings out of the way), picking up and chambering the next cartridge. The sight returns to its original position with springs and a ball bearing detent. The double-set triggers are neat, too. Pulling the front one is just about identical to the single trigger in the older one. Pulling the rear one first to set the double triggers makes the front one a hair trigger. I mean that it is really, really light.

I put the leather lace-on recoil pad on the old one because a 270gr bullet at 2,160fps from a 6-1/4lb rifle with a curved steel buttplate was brutal. It lowered the felt recoil to tolerable. Evidently someone who owned the newer one in the past had the same problem. They cut off the steel buttplate. It had a very old 1" thick rubber recoil pad on it. It was in poor shape and was cracking. I replaced it with a new 0.6" thick recoil pad and put another leather lace-on recoil pad on top of it to hide the fact that someone butchered the stock. By using the thinner recoil pad, the length-of-pull was not changed when the lace-on pad was added. The older one has a LOP that is really too long since I did not shorten the stock before adding the lace-on pad.

Anyway, I shot the newer one today and it is accurate. It is even more tolerable to shoot than the older one. I am not saying that it is easy, but it is better than tolerable.

The very first M-1910 in 9.5x57 MS I ever saw was in a museum. It was in the Storz home. The Storz family was a local family who made his fortune in beer in the late 1800's, early 1900's. He bought the gun and took it to Africa before WW1. He returned with dozens of game animal heads he had collected with the gun. They were stuffed and hung on the walls. In the center was the Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Interestingly, that gun also had a leather lace-on recoil pad on it. I do not know if it still had the steel buttplate underneath. I guess some things never change. The Storz museum closed down and everything in it was sold at auction many years ago. The gun was sold, too, but I could not afford it at the time.

I can use Lyman 375167 bullets for reduced loads. Anything over 1,500 to 1,600fps, though, and accuracy goes out the window. Nothing I have that has a gas-check will feed in this gun.

I use the Lyman 375449 with gas check which seems a perfect fit for weight and has a flat nose.Thus it was the first bullet allowing me to fill the magazine and having it operating.
7X64 cases, are by here a good choice as among the "mauser base" ammos it has a small base and the Mannlicher had originally a smaller than "standard mauser" base. had the problem for fire forming from 8X57. May be in the States could do with .27 or 30-06

[flint45]

those are cool nice rifles .