BT Sniper's One-Step die REVIEW BY NEW SWAGER (me)

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK... From my experience a have a hard time believing any voids of air will be left between the brass case (jacket) and core when seating or forming the bullet simply because of the primmer pocket and flash hole. Any air I imagine will compress into this area. I just havn't seen anything that would suggest voids in the bullet....well wait I take that back. You will be able to see a horizontal wrinkle at times when you use a core that is to light for amount of jacket. Your bullets don't show anything like that. I actually have posted pics here somwhere of this.

I can also assure you I used a good amount of force while forming these bullets. No not standing on it but yes it seems the same amount as you as we gathered from the rim diameter is same as final bullet diameter. The rim is the last thing to swell out and will be smaller when not using as much pressure.

Yes, I had a hard time convincing myself that with any pressure at all near what I was using there could be void spaces, but it was the only thing I could think of...

So why did my lead cores match up to the top of the jacket and yours a bit short? I have a pretty good idea. Believe me this has been the challenge when designing this HP because as we know cast boolits and brass cases varry in weight. If they all where equal this would be far to easy.

Short answer and best I have is I used heavier jackets. Pure and simple. I may be wrong but I would bet a 66-68 grain jacket (yours) has more case volume then the 71-72 grain jacket I used. Give a heavy case a try and see if this makes a differense. But you say our bullets weighted nearly the same. Well nearly, or maybe 3-4 grains different. From the looks of it I bet 4 grains of lead shot in the nose of your bullets would bring that lead right nearly to the tip. All I'm saying is that 3-4 grains may be all that was needed to get your desired results and this may be done with possible either heavier cores or jackets or both.

DOH! Obviously, the thing I did NOT think of! I think you hit the nail right on the head. Experienced swager talk. My jackets were lighter, so obviously, since the outsides of the bullets are the same (limited by the internal size of the die), your heavier jackets fill up more of the internal volume of the bullet, hence, displacing the core more towards the mouth. The answer was right there. I will definitely be trying out the sample unfinished bullets you sent, but I'm going to weigh your jackets and cores first. I'm sure this is exactly what the difference is.

Now in a perfect world I would only use the absolt medium of both average jacket weight and core weight when I set up these dies, and maybe that is just what I may have to do in the future. I had depleted my supply and therefore used the heavier jackets. You figured out the same sort of scale as ihave when paring cores to jackets I'm sure you could adjust it 3-4 grain to the heavier side or I could simply make you a slightly larger HP that will displace the necessary amount of lead to completly fill your case. But do give a heavier combination a try and see what happens.

I don't know if it's that big of a deal. I know some people will get worked up over cosmetic issues like this, but c'mon! We're making our OWN JHPs!! That should tickle a handloader silly!! (At least it did me: )

The "fix" is for swagers to remember that they have a lot of flexibility available to them. With a simple addition of a few shot in the bottom of the jacket, or a different nose punch, they can fix most of this with very little trouble. Then there's the solution many others have suggested: trimming the cases... Out of the options, I like the heavier core/overall weight option the best. It works for me, both compared to my normal cast boolit weights and being lazy and not wanting to trim the brass!

Maybe, if you kept a sampling of the heaviest and lightest cases, you would at least know the range you are dealing with. Maybe you could modify your HP pin design (or include two pins to cover all the bases) to come up with something that works for the whole range -- gaping deep hollow point with lead barely getting to the mouth of the jacket with the lightest jackets, and medium-to-small HP cavity with a little of the lead exposed outside the jacket for the heavier ones?

Guys have been using the belling die to seat cores and it looks rather good. It is one small step that is not needed but is certainly easy as it is allready set up in frount of you ( yours look great by the way). Just droping a core into a belled case and then swage will give same results. I've tried! As long as teh core just fits and is not slightly big as you found out. If they made a .390 core we could skip the belling of the mouth too.

Until I read this, I hadn't thought it through, but of course -- again, the voice of experience you are -- you're absolutely right. The swaging die will seat that core no problem; all by itself. I'm making an extra step out of it, but as you could see with my weight-matching exercise, I can be a bit of an OCD freak.

The bullet hanging on the HP does happen some times and I certainly try to avoid it by design. So long as it dose'nt require a pair of pliers to remove teh simple sollution is to touch it with your lanolin fingers every once in a while this usally does teh trick.

You know, as I was typing my long post above, I thought of that when I re-read it. I got to the step about the lanolin lubing, and I thought, "why don't I just rub a tiny touch of that onto the HP pin?" Definitely will try this next session.

Now should you wish to continue to make the 250 grain bullets we can attempt to adjust teh top stop bolt ever so slightly downward. I MEAN SLIGHLY! Not saying to do so just yet and certainly make witness marks with a sharpy pe or somthing so you can return to my preset postion. The simmple fact is you have created a bullet that still has a bit of room left in the die cavity for a bit more lead in the nose. If we adjust the stop bolt on top to force the HP nose punch to stop it's movment a bit sooner then normal (as in lower in the die cavity) we have effectivly taken up a bit of that void and also forced a bit more lead to displace upward to the nose. Problem is adjust it to much down and it may still leave you with the jacket above the core or could also shorten teh bullet a bit as well as make a slightly larger metplat on the bullet if it does not allow the jacket any further up teh die either. Now you are compressing the jacket a bit as well as displacing a bit more lead. THis is as you can tell the technical solution, simple solution is a slightly heavier bullet with either jacket or core.

Well, I'm sure, when I get a different HP pin, you'll have to walk me threw the whole process of replacing and adjusting it's depth, but for now, I'm perfectly happy with where it's set. First off, I have some heavier cases (about 100 Winchesters) that I haven't even annealed yet. Second, I'm liking the idea of a heavier bullet anyway. Third, if I get the chop saw and start cutting off the rims and extractor grooves of the cases, I'll probably need to adjust the pin the other way -- may even wind up balancing out the length nearly perfectly with it's current setting combined with the addition of a little shot in the bottom of the jacket... More experimenting to come!!

From the sounds of it you are using the 40 cal 175 normal lube bollit. I like this one better by the way then the TL version. The TL version seems to drop a bit larger on me. COuld jsut be the mold. Now if you are really brave, and I did this, you make the supreme sacrafice to the swage gods and sacrafice a pefectly good mold. With a dremmil I CARFULLY ground down that lube grove and gained 4-8 grains on my cores. up to you here. Once you start you will be making all sorts of sacrifices to get in good with the gods .

You want me to ruin a perfectly good mould!?!?!? Hey, I know this is the swaging forum, but you're going to get burned at the stake by the pitchfork and lantern crowd!! This is CAST BOOLITS forum, you know!! In all actuallity, that mould is my primary mould for my 10mm loading, and I couldn't cut out the lube groove... (But I agree that would work dandy for a core-making mould for this boolit!) The boolit I'm using for cores is on the left in this picture:

Well I can get long winded too it seems. You are just starting on this new hobby and allready making bullets far better then many of us did when we attmepted this for the first time. Just saying it gets fun from here. Experiment a little and see what combination or weight bullet the die will make best for you. Anouther thing should you wish to make the 280s a smaler HP would certainly help you out and of course I can hook you up with one

Well enjoy and from the looks of it I'm sure you'll keep us informed. Let me know if I made any sence here or if I may have missed anything. YES I know... an instruction pamplit would probably be very helpfull right? Not enough time in the day it seems.

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

Well, thank you for the compliment. That's high praise. I still think they're ugly, because I didn't citric acid them first THEN polish 'em, but they're like how a person looks at their own child - the child may have hit every branch on the ugly tree while falling out of it, but mom and dad still think they're the prettiest thing in the world!

I honestly can't wait to shoot them. Gotta wait for a new scale and chrono, but hopefully in the next couple months.

As far as the 280 is concerned, as I said in my post during lunch break today, we're gonna talk!! I'm really liking that XTP-looking JHP you've come up with, and a smaller HP pin optimized to making a soft point hollow point in the 280gr range with non-trimmed brass sounds rather exciting to me! (Maybe a combination of the two concepts???)

.

[MakeMineA10mm]

By the way folks, if it hasn't come through loud and clear yet, don't buy any swaging tools until you talk to BT Sniper!

He has made C-H's good product much better, and BT is a HUGE help with helping you figure things out. (Not that there's much to do, as he sets the die up FOR you...) It just don't get much better than him!

Oh, wait, did I mention he's NOT expensive?? And, shipping is free!!

(I guess he could come to the house and screw the die into the press for you... And, pull the handle...)

[troy7769]

BT and MakeMineA10mm, forgive me if i have not understood but i think that, MakeMineA10mm said in his review that he was using 50/50 ww and pure, and i think BT uses only ww. i may be wrong but i think this may be the difference that has caused MakeMineA10mm cores to be shallower than BT's. the 50/50 mix is going to be heavier than just ww. i may be way off on this, it was just a thought.

[MakeMineA10mm]

No troy, I think you're on the right track there too! My 50/50 mix with more pure lead will be denser and hence smaller in volume for the same weight...

But, wait a minute, in theory the mould being the same volume SHOULD mean my cores would be heavier, but the same volume, wouldn't they? In other words, they should take up the same space, but weigh more... Of course, we didn't use the same mould. BT used the Tumble-Lube version and I used the traditional lube groove. That may make a difference too...

Maybe BT will come along shortly and think on it.

Also, when I get my digital scale replaced, I can quickly and easily weigh BT's samples and my components and give a more definitive answer too...

[BT Sniper]

Easier to think of it by volume rather then weight. Be it pure lead or straight tin it should take up the same amount of space. I could be wrong.

I weighted a few of the cores I used and they seemed to be real close to 10mm's. I still think the culprit is the brass. Find yourself the heaviest case you can and form it up with one of the same 182ish grain cores and see if the lead core rises more then the 66-68 grain cases you used. It's just a test here, one I should probably elaborate on with pics someday.

Either way it is mearly cosmetics. The real test is in how well they shoot but ofcourse looks sell and again should you wish I can reshape that HP a bit more to fit your specs if you wish.

BT

[bohica2xo]

"Ruin a perfectly good mould?"

Nope, that is why Lee makes that aluminum junk. A drill bit improves the quality immediately... Drill out a 32 cal mould to make a nice drop in core for swaging.

B.

[Daywalker]

Makeminea10mm, I would have to agree with you on the mould comment. I can't bring myself to ruin such an excellent mould myself.

Nice review, I have enjoyed reading it and look forward to more bullets made by you. Would love to see some range results and what recipe you come up with using your swaged bullets...

[zuke]

What about a 44 mold as a core mold for the .40 cal brass?
I'd like a heavier bullet for my 45Win Mag

[bohica2xo]

What about a 44 mold as a core mold for the .40 cal brass?
I'd like a heavier bullet for my 45Win Mag

If you are making 45's you will probably want the core seating die. You can use the 41 cal stuff as-is (TL410-210-SWC or 410-195-SWC) or drill out a .400 or .357 set of blocks.

If you use the .410's, you will need to bell the case a bit to stuff the cores cleanly.

B.

[Daywalker]

the 44 mould I believe will be too big in diameter to seat into the 40 case as is. You may be able to size it down to a .401 diamter and then seat it into the 40 case. The 44 mag is .430 diameter and the 40 case is .423-.424 in diameter. I can double check my 40 cases and let you know. The diameter I am stating is from the top of my head.

[zuke]

Sorry, I ment the 41 mag,
LEE Mold Code; TL410-210-SWC #90335

[MakeMineA10mm]

"Ruin a perfectly good mould?"

Nope, that is why Lee makes that aluminum junk. A drill bit improves the quality immediately... Drill out a 32 cal mould to make a nice drop in core for swaging.

B.

Makeminea10mm, I would have to agree with you on the mould comment. I can't bring myself to ruin such an excellent mould myself.

Nice review, I have enjoyed reading it and look forward to more bullets made by you. Would love to see some range results and what recipe you come up with using your swaged bullets...

Well, I've had both good and bad experiences with Lee moulds, but overall, I'd say considering the money, they are fantastic. The designs aren't bad at all, they have a lot of cavities, and they're finished quite well. I think they're one mistake is that to hit their price point they ran some bad tooling too long on worn-out machines by low-experience-level workers. That seems to have been addressed now. The last several moulds I've gotten from them were perfect. Would I like heavier-quality wood and no pot-metal in the handles? Absolutely. But, for $35 (on sale at Midway) to $55 (for our group buy custom moulds), they're a heck of a deal! Just look at the output.


Anyway, as far as a "core mould" goes, the way I look at it, is I have a mould I can use in my 10mms, a 38-40, or 40S&W PLUS I can use it for cores in my JHPs. If I drill it out, it's only worth doing the one job...


As far as using a 44-cal mould for cores, I think it's very possible. I didn't play with it real hard, but those jackets are SOOOO soft after annealing, I bet you could spread them out in a couple steps to accept a .430" bullet into their mouths. Then, keep in mind what BT said -- his die is designed to seat and form the core and bullet in one pass, without the core fully seated into the jacket. My bet is that with a super-soft anneal, you could bell mouth (pretty deep) the 40 case with a 41S&W Mag die, and then gently bell mouth again with a 44 die (just enough to let the .43" core start into the mouth. Then, let the one-step die do the rest. It also might help if you use a RN or RNFP 44-cal boolit for the core, as started nose-down, it would also encourage the brass to accept it. After all, if the anneal allows the .422" case to swell to .452" without splitting or cracking in the die, it should allow it during a bell-mouth operation or core-seating operation...

[bohica2xo]

Well, I've had both good and bad experiences with Lee moulds, but overall, I'd say considering the money, they are fantastic. The designs aren't bad at all, they have a lot of cavities, and they're finished quite well. I think they're one mistake is that to hit their price point they ran some bad tooling too long on worn-out machines by low-experience-level workers. That seems to have been addressed now. The last several moulds I've gotten from them were perfect. Would I like heavier-quality wood and no pot-metal in the handles? Absolutely. But, for $35 (on sale at Midway) to $55 (for our group buy custom moulds), they're a heck of a deal! Just look at the output.

I had enough of that junk that you describe right in your post to color my experiences with them. I have cast tens of thousands of bullets in steel moulds and have always been happy with the results.

Since you acknowledge the fact that they made a bunch of junk, why not recycle a piece of it for a core mould?

Anyway, as far as a "core mould" goes, the way I look at it, is I have a mould I can use in my 10mms, a 38-40, or 40S&W PLUS I can use it for cores in my JHPs. If I drill it out, it's only worth doing the one job...

If lee moulds are so cheap, why not buy a new mould for cores? 35 bucks right?

As far as using a 44-cal mould for cores, I think it's very possible. I didn't play with it real hard, but those jackets are SOOOO soft after annealing, I bet you could spread them out in a couple steps to accept a .430" bullet into their mouths. Then, keep in mind what BT said -- his die is designed to seat and form the core and bullet in one pass, without the core fully seated into the jacket. My bet is that with a super-soft anneal, you could bell mouth (pretty deep) the 40 case with a 41S&W Mag die, and then gently bell mouth again with a 44 die (just enough to let the .43" core start into the mouth. Then, let the one-step die do the rest. It also might help if you use a RN or RNFP 44-cal boolit for the core, as started nose-down, it would also encourage the brass to accept it. After all, if the anneal allows the .422" case to swell to .452" without splitting or cracking in the die, it should allow it during a bell-mouth operation or core-seating operation...

For .429's on a 40S&W case, it is easiest to just use the 400 / .410 moulds, or modify a smaller one for a drop in core. Find an unwanted 38 mould and make cores just the weight you want.

I open 9mm cases up to make 45acp bullets from them in one pass. No need for a larger core, and finding a .429 mould that throws a light enough core for a 180gr bullet would be rare indeed. The .400 core works just fine, as does .375 wire.

B.

[Doby45]

What you need to do, is go ahead and buy a 2 or 6 cav Lee mold of a small size, like 32cal or whatever is on sale for CRAZY CHEAP this week at Midwayusa. Then take and drill it with a drill that is just the size Sniper said so it would slip right into the case with no belling. You would of course drill it on a drill press and at first just drill it as deep as it "looks" like it needs to go. Cast a single swaging slug from it and weight it. If you need it to weight more drill it slightly deeper. Continue to do this till you get to the weight you want and then drill the other cavities to that same depth on the drill press. NOW you would have a swage slug made to the diameter you want and should cast at a VERY close weight. If I swaged that would be what I would personally do. You get a 6 cav and you could cast up a stinkin mess of really accurate swaging slugs.

[BT Sniper]

+1 what doby said.

+1 as well with the anti GPal. didn't have any problems when they where gunpal but problems now.

Anyway, Swage On!

BT

[MakeMineA10mm]

UPDATE

First off, I went down to do some work in the reloading room and decided to mess with the digital scale. Hooked her back up, and she's fine. Just needed some time for the scale to settle down. It's working fine. SO, I was able to do some weighing and measuring.

BT's jackets are definitely heavier than mine. Here's the weights for the five jackets of the five samples of unfinished bullets that BT sent me:

71.9
66.4
71.0
71.3
71.0

Now, keep in mind that brass is much less dense than lead, so Brian's cases averaging 3 to 5 grains heavier than mine means that those jackets take up a LOT of space inside the die, compared to mine. I think this explains why his bullets' cores are ending up right at the mouth of the jacket and mine are not... Note, too, that one of his cases is right in line with the averages of my jackets' weights...

================================================== ===============

Now, as far as my adding weight to the core via shot, I've experimented and found success!

First off, I had estimated that 9 shot add about 10grs, 13 shot add about 15grs and 17 shot add about 19.5grs. Well, my first project at the reloading bench tonight was to try those varieties to see where the cores end up in relation to the mouth of the jacket. Now, since my scale came back to life, I was also able to really check the weight changes those extra shot add. Turns out my guesses were off... Of course, I discovered the scale was working AFTER I added shot, so I didn't weigh the cases, cores, or shot to try to get them to be identical. Also, my sample size was only two of each weight, so these figures are ROUGH adjustments:

9 shot adds 13.8grs, giving a 263.8gr bullet (average)
13 shot adds 17.9grs, giving a 267.9gr bullet (average -- this one was close, one weighed .1gr more and one weighed .1gr less)
17 shot adds 21.5grs, giving a 271.5gr bullet

Out of the two of each weight I made, here's a comparison pic of the better one, lined up with the other weights. (Obviously, these are 271.5 on left, 267.9 in middle, and 263.8 on right.)


My favorite is the 268gr. As you can see, the lead barely rolls around in a semi-circular ring, just above the mouth of the jacket. This is going to be my goal weight. Interestingly, it is 1gr heavier than my custom Group Buy cast Heavy Keith boolit.


I'm still getting lopsided cores at the mouth. Can't figure out what's causing that.

[BT Sniper]

It looks like you may need to tighten teh die down just a bit more. Not much but give it a try. Matter of fact tighten it down to much till you can't cam over the press then back it back out a very small amount at a time untill you can just barely. That should be just about the perfect spot. See if this will square up the nose a bit. It should. No reason the tip should be lopsided uless it is not fully pressed into the die.

Notice how the one odd ball 66 grain jacket slipped into my 71 grain batch. oops!

I did some sorting of 4 gallons worth of annealed brass I did over the weekend. Interesting results as when sorted the majority of the brass was either 67 or 71 grains though the extreem spread is still from 65-74 grains.

Give the die a bit more pressure see if you can get that lead tip squared up. You still shouldn't have to stand on it of course but it should fiz your lopside.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Though looking at your pics I can see the slight angle starting to form in the lead at the tip of the hollow point in the bullet indicating the shoulder of the HP pin is almost there. THis is fixed by either adding just a bit more pressure or bringing the top stop bolt down just a very slight amount.

Really can't quite make out the lopside you are talking about though. Take a side view next to one of those bullet I sent you.

BT

[MakeMineA10mm]

Here's a pic I took a couple days ago that should illustrate it:



.

[MakeMineA10mm]

A quick note on some cost calculations:

Jackets: $60-$75 / 1000
Cores: $11.35 / 1000
Die: $150
Citric Acid: $3 / 1000
Tumbling: $3 / 1000
Annealing: $14 / 1000
Anhyd.Lanolin: $1 / 1000

Total: 242.35 -- 257.35 / 1000

So, in the first 1000 bullets made, the total equals what you would pay for 1000 of the cheapest factory JHPs (240gr Remingtons), which means the die has paid for itself in the first 1000 bullets made.

Now, after that, without the die figured into cost:

92.35 -- 107.35 / 1000

So now we're making JHPs for $9 to $11 per box of 100, less than 1/2 the cost of the cheapest factory JHPs, and 1/3 the cost of the more expensive Hornadys, Speers, and Sierras...

Now, the biggest cost is the brass. I've priced it in the list above at the costs I've found on the net, but I've found fired 40S&W brass here locally for nearly free. If you can cut that cost down to ZERO to $20 / 1000, now it's getting ridiculously cheap to swage your own JHPs...

At this rate, I'm gonna have a hard time NOT justifying getting dies for 9mm and 10mm...