Bullet Lube & Accuracy

[Jerry11826]

I thought bullet lube was to prevent barrel leading. A leaded barrel obviouly will effect accuracy, but as long as the lube prevents leading, I don't see how it could effect accuracy.

And yet, many posters talk about how type "A" lube is more accurate than type "B"

Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Jerry

[BABore]

Barrel leading is easily overcome through proper boolit fit and alloy. If these conditions are met, even a very poor lube will work. Increase bbl length, velocity, and pressure, then things change. You may need a better quality lube. It is typical to see barrel leading at the throat and forward a few inches if the boolit fit and alloy are off. This can rapidly progress down the entire bbl. When a lube fails, you will typically see leading start near the muzzle. This is usually from lack of lube quality or lack of lube capacity on the boolit. Sometimes a higher quality lube will remedy a capacity problem. Then you can go to the other extreme and have a boolit with lots of lube capacity and you use a very slick, high-end lube. This situation may work out fine in a 4-10" wheelgun bbl, but problems can arise in rifle length bbls. Too much of a good thing can throw fylers due to lube purging in rifles. The excess lube fouls the bbl and the next boolit pushes it out causing a flyer. This type of problem also shows up on the first cold bore shot following prior shooting of the lube. When the bbl is hot, you may not see any problems. When it cools down, the excess lube congeals and hardens in the bbl. The first shot has to overcome it and push it out.

Different lubes also have different hardnesses and viscosities. They affect how the lube stick to, and stays on a boolit after sizing and lubing. They also affect how they come off a boolit. Some very hard, commercial lubes may partially fall off during shipment or when your handling them. Missing lube will throw out the boolits center of gravity. Sometimes it only partially comes off during flight. Again, throwing the boolit out of balance.

So, yes lube is more than just a leading reducer. A lube is no different than a powder, boolit, or primer choice. It is a variable that affects accuracy. Lube demands change from pistol to rifle, velocity, boolit, pressure, etc. to name a few. Once you establish a good solid load, experiment with different lubes and shoot several groups for accuracy. Be aware, that when you start with a clean bbl., it may take from 5 to 30 rounds before the bbl settles in with it. When you change to another lube, it will take a few rounds there as well. Usually less than 5 though. One of the final things about lubes that will bite you is ambient temperature. Lube properties change when you go from 35 to 90 F.

[btroj]

So lube purging may be why I see a reduction in accuracy in cold weather in my rifles with carnuba red in colder temps until the barrel warms up?
Intersting. I knew what was happening but not why.

Not that this info will change the way I do things bit it is nice to understand what is going on. The difference is not that great, certainly not enough to be a problem in a hunting situation.

Brad

[fryboy]

i once made some umm... flux that i attempted to lube boolits with ...it worked as far as the bore leading was concerned but a known load opened up on me , a load that actually does decent with a couple of commercial lubes ( lyman moly and rooster hvr ) my 1.5-2 groups went to 8" ummm patterns , best i can figure is it was kinda slick , i've learned alot since then ( thanx guys !! ) including that bad lube makes great flux

[geargnasher]

Barrel leading is easily overcome through proper boolit fit and alloy. If these conditions are met, even a very poor lube will work. Increase bbl length, velocity, and pressure, then things change. You may need a better quality lube. It is typical to see barrel leading at the throat and forward a few inches if the boolit fit and alloy are off. This can rapidly progress down the entire bbl. When a lube fails, you will typically see leading start near the muzzle. This is usually from lack of lube quality or lack of lube capacity on the boolit. Sometimes a higher quality lube will remedy a capacity problem. Then you can go to the other extreme and have a boolit with lots of lube capacity and you use a very slick, high-end lube. This situation may work out fine in a 4-10" wheelgun bbl, but problems can arise in rifle length bbls. Too much of a good thing can throw fylers due to lube purging in rifles. The excess lube fouls the bbl and the next boolit pushes it out causing a flyer. This type of problem also shows up on the first cold bore shot following prior shooting of the lube. When the bbl is hot, you may not see any problems. When it cools down, the excess lube congeals and hardens in the bbl. The first shot has to overcome it and push it out.

Different lubes also have different hardnesses and viscosities. They affect how the lube stick to, and stays on a boolit after sizing and lubing. They also affect how they come off a boolit. Some very hard, commercial lubes may partially fall off during shipment or when your handling them. Missing lube will throw out the boolits center of gravity. Sometimes it only partially comes off during flight. Again, throwing the boolit out of balance.

So, yes lube is more than just a leading reducer. A lube is no different than a powder, boolit, or primer choice. It is a variable that affects accuracy. Lube demands change from pistol to rifle, velocity, boolit, pressure, etc. to name a few. Once you establish a good solid load, experiment with different lubes and shoot several groups for accuracy. Be aware, that when you start with a clean bbl., it may take from 5 to 30 rounds before the bbl settles in with it. When you change to another lube, it will take a few rounds there as well. Usually less than 5 though. One of the final things about lubes that will bite you is ambient temperature. Lube properties change when you go from 35 to 90 F.

That was so well said I had to post it again!

In the high end of rifle shooting, slight adjustments to the amount or viscocity of the actual lubricating oils in the carrier can make a huge difference in group sizes, as well as the addition or reduction of one groove-full. Lube must be balanced to the exact condition of use for the best results, same as powder or alloy as said above. Sometimes, when stepping up velocity incrementally, lube must be altered slightly every 2-300 fps to keep accuracy going. In most pistol shooting you'll never know much difference as long as the lube is sufficient to prevent leading and leave a consistent residue through a long string.

Gear

[Jerry11826]

Thanks for the replies - I guess we agree in some ways. My only point of reference is light pistol loads, less than 1,000 fps. At less that 1,000 fps, it doesn't make any difference what you use to lube bullets, as long as it prevents leading and doesn't contaminate the powder.

Thanks again, thought I was missing something.

Jerry

[Recluse]

Thanks for the replies - I guess we agree in some ways. My only point of reference is light pistol loads, less than 1,000 fps. At less that 1,000 fps, it doesn't make any difference what you use to lube bullets, as long as it prevents leading and doesn't contaminate the powder.

Thanks again, thought I was missing something.

Jerry

Well, I gotta disagree with that.

A pretty good while back, I made up some lube that I was positive would be the cat's meow of all stick lubes. It had some synthetic stuff in it, after all, and I was convinced that was as good as it got.

Put it in the lubesizer and lubed some 148 gr .358WC and some .452SWC. Loaded them with my standard Bullseye loads, took them to the range to shoot in the same guns that give me one ragged hole at 50 feet.

Imagine my surprise when I couldn't even keep some of the shots on the paper?

First thing I did when I got back home was went crying to Felix. Told him what I'd put in the lube, how I'd mixed it, etc etc. He explained about viscosity and how it affects boolit accuracy, and how your ingredients affect viscosity.

I can't explain it here--I do not have the chemical/engineering background. But I know how to do it. I tossed that lube, and went back to my tried and true lube. Cleaned all the old stuff out of the barrells, lubed new boolits, loaded, shot, and right back to one ragged hole.

Both loads, by the way, were well under 1000fps.

[cbrick]

Gotta agree with Recluse, I did a lot of lube testing a few years back using a mid range load in my 308. The first thing I learned was that making a lube that prevents leading is pretty easy, every single lube recipe I made prevented leading but the bullet fit the rifle correctly. Every one gave a different level of accuracy and the worst by far were the lubes that contained anything synthetic. The tests went from decent 150m groups to couldn't hit the target at 150m with the synthetic lubes.

Pretty surprising, like Recluse I had high hopes for the synthetics.

Rick

[Eutectic]

Well, I gotta disagree with that.

Me too......

While we refer to our 'goop' as a lubricant, and in fact ONE of its functions is in fact; there's much more to the picture.
Some synthetics may in fact be too good in our lubricant! Other petroleum products as well. Maybe even other additions we are putting in the soup...

I had a decently accurate .22 Long Rifle load for small game. The bullet was plated (not that plating was any problem....) Boy, they seemed awful 'dry' of any lubrication at all to me. I though a little extra would sure help them! So I applied a thin coat of thinned Lee Liquid Alox... The first group was very nice! I smiled! The second five shots had a flier.... The third five shots were all flyers!!!!!! Don't get me wrong... I lube with the thinned Alox; even add it to nose sections in what I call a 'duplex' lube with great results at times. But the mild .22 chewed on it some... and then spit it out!

Something that doesn't get talked about enough here IMHO is bore condition. I am speaking of bore condition after our cast boolit is launched down it, then the next one and the next....
To me, having a repeatable bore condition from shot to shot as long as possible without cleaning is one of the big secrets of cast boolit accuracy.
Some things help achieving this; some things don't! So too good a lubricant (even if it might be the very best lube there is in the finals of a D-10 Cat) may give lousy repeatability.. in our secret formula. Viscosity plays a major role. We worry about our lube being too sticky... we need hard! We should be worrying about what the bore and accuracy like the best. Some of my very best groups in the past were using the old discontinued Winchester 'Super Grex' as a filler... I believe even more importantly that powder position uniformity was what seemed like a 'bore conditioning' by the Grex from shot to shot to stabilize that elusive bore condition repeatability shot after shot after shot... A high velocity gaschecked rifle load may like one set of rules; a slow mellow rifle load another; then handguns something else!
If anyone has these 'lube' attributes please post...even if it is a long one!


Eutectic

[cajun shooter]

What takes some people a life time to learn is that every thing that we put in our lubes and each component of every round will make a difference. Primers will make huge jumps in pressure and group size. The what I use information should only be used by someone to try and start out. Each person is different in the way they shoot to test rounds. How they use information given to them. Are they very down to the point or that will do type people. I just saw a thread that was up to 3 pages and the question was What powders do you use in your guns. You can't use the information that is given as the amount of variables is huge.

[geargnasher]

I agree, CS. One thing I've learned here is that most people never really get into the nitty-gritty of what makes things work. They just want a formula that works, and don't want to understand how or why it works. Or it turns into an argument based on different individual experiences and results.

I maintain that one needs at least a cursory understanding of metallurgy, internal ballistics, and lube properties to achieve continued success with cast boolits due to the fact that conditions constantly change. If you don't understand what's going on, it's hard to make effective corrections.

It would be nice to have the concise guide to boolit lube properties, but I think a quick study of MML and FWFL will give you a pretty good idea of what makes a good lube work. Go read the Castpics archives and you'll get an even better understanding.

Gear

[fredj338]

Thanks for the replies - I guess we agree in some ways. My only point of reference is light pistol loads, less than 1,000 fps. At less that 1,000 fps, it doesn't make any difference what you use to lube bullets, as long as it prevents leading and doesn't contaminate the powder.

Thanks again, thought I was missing something.

Jerry

I have to agree w/ Recluse, it can matter, a lot in some guns. Every gun/load is diff. IF you are capable of holding sub 2" groups at 25yds, then you can see the affects of diff bullet lubes, like changing powders or even primers, it can matter.

[Jerry11826]

October 11, 2010

Hi Fred!

You are probably correct. Many participants in this thread believe the type of lube makes a difference. I don’t believe this is true, if the lube prevents or reduces leading.

Tomorrow, I am going to determine if it is true, for me.

I have always used “Star” tools to size and lubricate bullets. I want something that is as good or better. And, hopefully faster and less expensive.

“Star” tools are great, but ghastly expensive. I have three! The last die I bought was about $50.00. I purchased it from “Magma Engineerig” To be fair, the price included “shipping and handling”.

I am trying “XLOX”, diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits. The bullets are lubed and sized with a “Lee 358" die. then “re-lubed” after sizing. The barrel, of the ‘Ruger GP 100 “ has been cleaned with a “Lewis” lead remover. There is no lead in the barrel!

The load is a Lee cast 38 special, 150 grn round nose on top of 2.8 grns. of Alliant Bullseye. I plan to shoot 150 rounds, go home and run the lead remover through the barrel and determine if the “Lee” lube / size system produces the same results as the “Star” tool.

I hope it works, as I need the money via selling my “Star tools”.

Thanks for your post,

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

Life is complicated enough deal with people without turning bullet lube into some sort of rocket science. IMHO there are two kinds of lube, those that work and those that don't work. I have used all sorts of lubes and have never found one that works to be better than another that works.

By works I mean doing what a lube is supposed to do in keeping the fire off the sides of the bullet and providing enough stuff to last the bullet it's trip down the barrel.

I can load cast bullets in rifles that will deliver all the accuracy the individual rifle has to give. I can load cast bullet in handguns, that can hit the X-ring every time. Of course, the shooter has to be up to it, and there is the matter of proper bullet fit, proper bullet temper, proper bullet design, proper powder and etc. etc. etc.

It there is some mystery or magical bullet lube out there that causes a bullet to be more accurate than the other host of good lubes I have never found it and I have tried several dozen including some who were supposed to be the answer to a cast bullet shooters prayer.

Flame away you techies!

In the matter of disclosure I use two lubes

1. The first is beeswax with enough Vaseline to soften it so it works in a lube sizer machine. This is good for all handgun loads and rifle loads up to 2K fps.

Yea..yea.. I know there are all kinds of theories why this doesn't work and Vaseline has morphed over time. The problem is that is does work and has worked for me for over 50 years now. I just can't get around those bullet holes in the targets that are overlapping or right next to each other. Theories and tech talk be damned.

2. If I want to go about 1.9 or 2K fps, the Felix lube is the way to go.

[Von Gruff]

1. The first is beeswax with enough Vaseline to soften it so it works in a lube sizer machine. This is good for all handgun loads and rifle loads up to 2K fps.

Those were the ingredients that were given me to use as lube when I started casting about 15 years ago. 2/3 bees wax with 1/3 vaseline has been my only lube for the 44 mag pistol velocities through to 2415fps from my 7mm rifle.
Bought a 5 kg block of bees wax and that will continue to make my lube for the forseeable future. See all the lubes with multiple and exotic components but as I get satisfactory hunting accuracy from my loads, I see no need to change or experiment.

Von Gruff.

[Char-Gar]

Von Gruff... Those porportions sound about right, but a little slip and slide either way won't change anything.

You prove another point. Yesterday over morning coffee, my wife and I were talking about places we would like to go. I mentioned New Zealand. She asked why, and my reply was I have never met a New Zealander I didn't like. I am certain you guys have your share, but idiots and jerks, but I have not met them. Now I have know a few Aussies I didn't like!

[geargnasher]

October 11, 2010

Hi Fred!

You are probably correct. Many participants in this thread believe the type of lube makes a difference. I don’t believe this is true, if the lube prevents or reduces leading.

Tomorrow, I am going to determine if it is true, for me.

I have always used “Star” tools to size and lubricate bullets. I want something that is as good or better. And, hopefully faster and less expensive.

“Star” tools are great, but ghastly expensive. I have three! The last die I bought was about $50.00. I purchased it from “Magma Engineerig” To be fair, the price included “shipping and handling”.

I am trying “XLOX”, diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits. The bullets are lubed and sized with a “Lee 358" die. then “re-lubed” after sizing. The barrel, of the ‘Ruger GP 100 “ has been cleaned with a “Lewis” lead remover. There is no lead in the barrel!

The load is a Lee cast 38 special, 150 grn round nose on top of 2.8 grns. of Alliant Bullseye. I plan to shoot 150 rounds, go home and run the lead remover through the barrel and determine if the “Lee” lube / size system produces the same results as the “Star” tool.

I hope it works, as I need the money via selling my “Star tools”.

Thanks for your post,

Jerry

So have you proven us all wrong yet? The real test is to see if you hit what you aim at with the Mule Snot, leading or otherwise.

Gear

[Jerry11826]

Yep, I did. Glad you asked! Was afraid to post, as sometimes forum members get very upset if you drink a different kind of beer than they do.

I fired 120 rounds on three NRA Bullseye replacement centers. I fired the groups at 25 yards rested off the top of my pistol box. There were 11 that were not within the 10 ring which is a 3 1/4 inch circle. I think the 11 may have been operator error. The X ring on all three targets was obliterated. This was as good as I have ever done with this pistol.

When I got home I swabbed the barrel with patches soaked in Hoppe's #9 solvent. Then I pulled the Lewis Lead remover thru the barrel. Repeated three times. No lead at all on the brass patch.

What can I say! Sure don't want want to make other members angry! But my conclusion is, bullet lube for light pistol loads makes no difference as long as the barrel does not lead.

What did Chargar post , something like "Life is too complicated" to spend your time worring about bullet lube.

Jerry

[fryboy]

ummmm now try that with rifles at 100 yards and 300 yards and ...

[geargnasher]

+1 Fryboy. Like I said, most pistol shooting won't show much difference in boolit lube, unless you're a real diehard and like to see what they can do at long range. I'm getting to where I routinely shoot my .357 Mag and .45 Colts out to 50 or even 100 yards in an effort to improve my shooting, you'd be amazed what a little old K-frame .38 special with a 3.5" bbl can do at 50 yards rested! You'd also be amazed by full-wadcutter gymnastics at that range and how bad accuracy can be with inferior lube.

Gear