Possibly the best Flux??? IDK

[xXFREEDOMisNOTfreeXx]

Hey guys, I am very new to the "Boolit" casting game so far. My Dad and I have now casted about 80Lbs of pure lead from roof flashings. Just recently we ran out of Flux wax and were complaining to ourselves about how much a stick cost from the NRA website and wondering why it cost so much. We started researching for cheaper alternatives and found from information on this website that anything from kitty litter to sawdust works great because of the fact it had carbon derivatives. This gave me an idea that I want to throw out to you guys. I use to work at a pet-store for years and we used "Activated Carbon" (which is extremely pure) to filter our fish tank water. Would it be possible to beat/pulverize these small pellets into a fine grit and add it to the smelting lead to harvest more impurities out easier? I am just an amateur at this so far but I think i am going to try this unless there is something someone knows on why it wouldn't work optimally. If the main point is to add carbon for a better end product I'd think this would work great. If anyone does try this before I do Plzzz let me know how it goes. I'll include some pictures below of what it looks like. Like I said you can get very high grade activated carbon at any pet-store or on-line at that matter. It's not to expensive either (depending on the grade and manufacturer).

The pic below is from here: http://www.marinedepot.com/Aquarium_...FMCHCM-vi.html

[cbrick]

Welcome to Castboolits Freedom,

Sounds fascinating, I had no idea of getting carbon like that from a pet store. It sounds like it should work well. Should and do are two different things though. Perhaps someone else will chime in here and say yes or no. If you try it please let us know. If I can get to a pet store I'll get some and try it.

Very interesting indeed. We shall see. Thanks for the idea.

Rick

[DLCTEX]

Why buy anything when a dry stick works so well? I'm sure the carbon would do nicely as that is what does the work when using a stick.

[Bret4207]

Ditto on the stick. As the stick chars and you're rubbing the sides and bottom of the pot it's putting the carbon way down deep under the surface. The longer you stir/scrape the more you add to the pot. Cheap, simple, effective and you aren't spending time trying to push the carbon under the melt.

[dragonrider]

Exactly what DLCTEX and Bret4207 said, WHY BUY ANYTHING.

[buck1]

Carbon is what steals the O2 from the oxicides and fluxes your pot. That pet store carbon may be great but most likely not better then the rest. t It would be like building a campfire with the pre fab fire logs. Carbon is all arround, any wax,oil,wood ++++. Carnuaba wax is my favorite! Little to no smoke and works well and lasts a long time.
If you want strong carbon flux I would buy cheepo charcoal

[timkelley]

I use sawdust and stir with a wooden stick.
If you want pre-made carbon go out to the BBQ and get some Charcoal Briquettes, crush them down.

[Doby45]

I also use an old well seasoned oak dowel to stir/flux my pot. Works like a champ.

[garym1a2]

I made a wax lube for pan lubing out of Lee Alox, Candle wax and toliet bowl wax. It was an aweful lube. But it makes a great flux, much better than the F.A. wax I brought.

[xXFREEDOMisNOTfreeXx]

First thanks to everyone who responded so quickly. I see where most people are saying to try the stick because it is so cost effective and that is what makes the difference in the casting game. I actually found some activated carbon last night in my storage room and will try it out on our next smelting session but the "Cost Effectiveness" of the stick or sawdust will probably seal the deal. Even though a good sized container of pure activated carbon might be a few bucks i think i will be thinking of the "long term" cost which will definitely add up sooner or later. There's nothing better than FREE.

I would like to know what kind of sticks you all are using though and how big? Is it just any old stick off a tree or do you want to use a piece of 2x4 or something more like tender wood, or does it make a difference? As for the sawdust, how much do you use? A tablespoon or more? If someone could take a picture of what they are using and post it that would be great. I know i am kind of nuking this out but again i am an amateur and rather have all the correct info from the start. Again thanks for all of your responses. It's great to be able to learn from the MASTERS!

[waksupi]

Most any stick will work. I generally use ram rod cut offs, as I have a lot of them around. Something about as big as you little finger is plenty. And as soon as you start stirring with the stick, you have just made yourself some activated charcoal.
A lot of us like about a half inch or less of plain kitty litter on top of the melt in our bottom pours. Keeps the lead from oxidizing, and helps maintain a steady pot temperature.

[montana_charlie]

xX,
Most any kind of stick will do...just don't use a green one fresh from the tree. The moisture in it will cause problems. I use scrap from under my table saw...some use (free) paint stirring sticks from the hardware store.

If you are fluxing a pot to clean out impurities, almost any amount of sawdust is okay, as you are just going to scoop it out, anyway. The less you waste, the better.

But if you have a bottom pour pot, you might want to put a sawdust 'cover' on the molten metal...initially about 1/4 inch thick. It will keep your metal 'fluxed' more or less constantly, if it has already been cleaned well.

CM

[cbrick]

Is there no curiosity on this forum?

I think FREEDOM came up with a very interesting idea. Whether or not it would be a long term fluxing solution isn't the point. For me it's all about the education of Rick. This is something I'll try, may not continue fluxing this way but it will be an interesting experiment to see if it's better, worse, the same, easier, harder, messier, cleaner or whatever.

I'm extremely pleased with how well sawdust both cleans my alloy, reduces Sn & Sb and leaves my pots completely clean but still, here is a chance to learn something and add to the education process and at the same time please the curiosity factor.

With out the "what if" and "why not" curiousity factor we would all still be casting the same way it was done at the turn of the century . . . the last century.

Isn't there anyone here with at least a bit of curiosity or want to learn something?

Rick

[Doby45]

Weird but true, I used some very well dried grass trimmings that were left in my mower bag lastnight. Worked very well and formed a nice little 1/8" thick layer of fine powder ash on top of my pot..

[geargnasher]

Is there no curiosity on this forum?

I think FREEDOM came up with a very interesting idea. Whether or not it would be a long term fluxing solution isn't the point. For me it's all about the education of Rick. This is something I'll try, may not continue fluxing this way but it will be an interesting experiment to see if it's better, worse, the same, easier, harder, messier, cleaner or whatever.

I'm extremely pleased with how well sawdust both cleans my alloy, reduces Sn & Sb and leaves my pots completely clean but still, here is a chance to learn something and add to the education process and at the same time please the curiosity factor.

With out the "what if" and "why not" curiousity factor we would all still be casting the same way it was done at the turn of the century . . . the last century.

Isn't there anyone here with at least a bit of curiosity or want to learn something?

Rick

I was thinking the same thing, and furthermore I think Freedom has a good idea for a Reducant. I have a bunch of activated carbon myself and might just try it. The only thing I can say for sure is that a couple of years ago I thought I might cut down on the sawdust smoke some and use crushed charcoal retrieved from my fireplace. It didn't work well at all, seems the carbon just sits there, and no matter how much stirring and mashing around I did the stuff wouldn't reduce the oxide scum. The filter charcoal may be a whole different animal.

Freedom, let us know how it worked, and trust us all on the stick trick, you need to be able to scrape the sides of the pot and then rake the oxide scum into a little pile against one side of the pot so you can mash/smear it against the metal with the stick, forcing the oxides to reduce back into the melt. When you're done, the alloy should be shiny and just a small pile of fine grey ash with no metal in it is all that's left to spoon out. Or as has been said you can leave a layer of sawdust in for the whole session if you cast with a bottom pour.

Gear

[sagacious]

Copied from one of my previous posts:

I suspect it's the hydrocarbons in unburned sawdust that are facilitating the reduction. Ordinary carbon can bond/adsorb molecules, but does not have the hydrogen to supply to the reaction. Activated carbon has had all of the hydrocarbons removed.

Consider that hydrocarbons supply reactive hydrogen, and that adding hydrogen to PbO might give you this:
PbO+H2 ---> Pb+H2O
Lead oxide plus hydrogen produces pure lead and water vapor.
The excess hydrogen also likely produces acids that help form a reducing atmosphere. This explains the popularity of acid fluxes.

Using a fluxing agent such as wax is using pure hydrocarbons. The result is positive fluxing, and a black powdery residue-- probably some left-over unreactive carbon. Sawdust has hydrocarbons plus resin/rosin, and rosin is a powerful fluxing agent as it both wets and reduces lead oxide, which helps in dross separation. This is why when you put a good flux, such as sawdust or wax, on the surface of oxidized lead, the oxide will rapidly clump together and expose a mirror-bright melt surface-- sometimes even without stirring.

A few years ago I mixed up some paraffin and rosin for fluxing. The rosin makes the wax rock hard. It is about the most aggressive fluxing agent I have ever seen. For normal scrap lead, most fluxes work fine, but when fluxing lead particulates/dust or heavily oxidized lead, the wax/rosin flux is far superior, because the huge surface area of the lead dust benefits from a flux with superior wetting ability.

[zxcvbob]

Consider that hydrocarbons supply reactive hydrogen, and that adding hydrogen to PbO might give you this:
PbO+H2 ---> Pb+H2O
Lead oxide plus hydrogen produces pure lead and water vapor.

If I remember my inorganic chemistry correctly, the reaction won't go that direction. Pb++ has a lower (barely) electrode potential than H+.

The best flux that I've found is lard or Crisco. It works about like old motor oil but it doesn't flame up or stink as much. And it leaves an oily film (glycerin?) on top that lasts a long time. I have some chicken fat in the fridge; I'll try that text time. It should work exactly the same.

I also use paint stir sticks; I pick up one or two whenever I go to Home Depot.

I don't expect the activated charcoal to work all that well, but you never know, hopefully Freedom will get back to us with a report.

[Bob.]

Carbon is what steals the O2 from the oxicides and fluxes your pot. That pet store carbon may be great but most likely not better then the rest. t It would be like building a campfire with the pre fab fire logs. Carbon is all arround, any wax,oil,wood ++++. Carnuaba wax is my favorite! Little to no smoke and works well and lasts a long time.
If you want strong carbon flux I would buy cheepo charcoal

I think Carnuaba wax is my favorite also.

Bob.

[xXFREEDOMisNOTfreeXx]

Yes, i will definitely give feedback after I try the experiment. I'm going to take some pictures too. I think that there has been some great feedback from all the posts. A lot of stuff I didn't even think of too. I would say the only way it work is to have the carbon ground into a dust form. I was also thinking of maybe making a mixture of melted wax and activated carbon dust just for the fun of it.

I am interested in what "zxcvbob" said about the chicken lard. Do you mean actual fat off a chicken in its solid state or could you use the "Grease" fat that you get after you drain hamburger meat? Or would either work? To me it would seem like it would start a grease fire...LOL.

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[RP]

The best sticks to stir my pot with are mast produced and then they just give them away two sizes I know of. I tell you were you can get your very own FREE sticks perfect to stir lead with since they were design to do just that stir. Go to LOWES around the middle of the store most of time is the paint department just ask for stir sticks and they just give them to you. For big pots ask for the ones for 5 gals buckets.