Powder measure

[Beekeeper]

Need to make(myself) a powder measure to load 70 grains of FFG Goex BP.
Have a 577/450 shell case I pulled the rim off of and was thinking of using it to make the measure.

How to do?
weigh the 70 grains and make a measure to fit?
some other way to get the proper ammount?


Jim

[Don McDowell]

That'll work.

[Beekeeper]

Thank you Don,
I thought it would work but was wanting to get an opinion from someone more knowledgable than me.

I could probably buy one but wanted to take the time and make one for myself.
To me it is part of the reloading game.
I have made my own smokeless powder measures for years.
Have the Lee ones and the powder scale but still like to tinker and make my own stuff.


Jim

[Don McDowell]

You're welcome , always glad to help if I can.

You'll want to trim that case back slowly as there will be a difference in how many grains will fit in it when poured and when scooped.
When you get it to the right size then take a piece of copper wire and make a handle for it . I have a scoop measure that I soldered a piece of heavy copper wire into the primer pocket. Have seen some with the wire twisted tight around the case and then tacked on with solder.

[JIMinPHX]

PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK ON THAT! PLEASE LOOK IT UP IN A RELIABLE BOOK.

I believe that Black powder is measured by volume, not weight. I don't believe that a weighed charge is going to be correct.

[JIMinPHX]

http://hunting.about.com/od/reloadin...surepowder.htm
http://www.cannon-mania.com/black_powder.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_powder_substitute

[Don McDowell]

PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK ON THAT! PLEASE LOOK IT UP IN A RELIABLE BOOK.

I believe that Black powder is measured by volume, not weight. I don't believe that a weighed charge is going to be correct.

Absolutely WRONG

Black Powder charges are weighed and measured in grains weight.
It's the fake **** aka Pyrodex, 777 and other phony stuff that is weighed in volume according to a black powder measure set for a certain grains weight.

[cajun shooter]

+10 ON WHAT DON SAID!!! I can't understand why people don't understand the truth. Go back into history and see what the truth is. Why do you think they call the 45-70 that name? It is not called 45-by volume!!! Even on old boxes of the real BP ammo it reads how many grains in each round. The by volume stuff did not turn up until the first sub powder was made. They were not the same in any thing that the real powder had. Density was one of them. So they said to all the people who were not smart enough to transfer the grain difference to load by volume. If you put 40 grains of bp in this case and it came to this mark then put that much of this sub. Study BP history before the 60's and see what you find. One armchair writer many years ago made the mistake of putting that incorrect info in a book and it has evolved into one giant snowball. Did the buffalo hunters use dippers,yes they did but only after being made with a scale.

[Doc Highwall]

The only minor problem will be when you change lots of powder the weight will vary because of different densities but the volume will remain unchanged making your compression the same also.

[DIRT Farmer]

When I load for shot gun, I don't worry, I scoop shot and powder and dump it in the barrel. If for a rifle a tall slender mesure that you pour the powder in if you are careful will be surprisingly close. In target shooting 50 and 100 yds offhand some use charge droppers built simular to a shotgun reloading charge bar.
Bench rest and long range most weigh each charge, but one shooter over the years has always used a poured charge in a mesure and done well.
The secret is to check aginst a scale using the style to gauge the mesure you will use when shooting. I doubt the deer of squiirels I have shot knew I had poured the charge I shot them with.

[JIMinPHX]

I'm not looking to start an argument here.

I've always been told to measure black powder by volume. That mostly comes from a bunch of back woods civil war reenactor type guys that shoot a lot of BP. That, a little BP rifle hunting & some fooling around with C&B revolvers is mostly where my BP knowledge comes from. I'm not claiming to be an expert.

I didn't say that everyone else was wrong. I just said to double check on it & please go look it up in a reliable book.

I think that it is prudent to seek information from several sources, especially when contradictory information is floating around in general pools of knowledge.

That aside, anyone that is starting the handle BP for the first time needs to learn a few things.

Black powder is a little different than smokeless in many ways ways. For instance, it is absolutely common to load a charge of smokeless powder (like Bullseye or 231) that only takes up about 1/4 of the case capacity of a modern metallic cartridge. The same practice with Black Powder is a big no-no.

Because the airspace in with the powder charge is to be avoided with black powder, it is common practice among many (not all, just many) people when loading black powder in metallic cartridges, to load powder to a measured height in the shell casing, then seat the boolit to a measured depth where the boolit base matches the powder charge height with the desired amount of compression.

I'm not saying that is the only way to do it. I'm not even going to try to argue that it is the best way to do it. I'm not looking to argue or prove a point. I'm just saying that a lot of people believe that measuring BP by volume is the way to go, so therefore it would be prudent to read a reliable book or two on the subject & then make a judgment call.

Also Black Powder is able to explode in open air when ignited, unlike smokeless. That is another thing to watch out for.

When loading a .44 cal C&B revolver, I often use a .38 special case for a powder measure when I'm just plinking.

[Don McDowell]

Where do you get a scale that measures out in volumes, and could you please point us to the volumes to grain conversion tables.?

[John Boy]

I believe that Black powder is measured by volume, not weight. I don't believe that a weighed charge is going to be correct.

++ 20 ... Wrong!
Same granulation's of black powder vary by density by manufacturer. And different lots from the same manufacturer vary for density.
If one derives a good loading data - measured by volume, runs out of the powder and buys more with a different lot ... the excellent loading data is going to change.

Here are some densities for different black powders ... that I calculated and are not in any printed material - anywhere!
Weight Vendor Grain
90.2 Goex Cartridge
91.2 DuPont FFg
91.9 KIK FFFg
94.1 Goex Cowboy
94.4 Goex FFFg 99JY02C
92.5 Goex FFFg 03 46 07NO03B
91.6 Goex FFFg 03 56 08NO02 B
94.4 Meteor FFg
97 Meteor FFFg
97.2 Goex Express FFg
97.8 Schuetzen FFFg
99.2 KIK FFg
102.3 Swiss FFFg
102.6 DuPont Fg
102.7 Skirmish Fg
104.4 Swiss 1.5
104.9 Swiss FFg

100 cc volume scale weighed

I didn't say that everyone else was wrong. I just said to double check on it & please go look it up in a reliable book.

Jim, there is NO RELIABLE reloading book for black powder. It's not like shooting nitro based powders and each type has a min and max fps and pressure from published loading data tables. That's why original bullets were named 38-55, 45-70, 50-70, etc were listed with powder charge as the suffix number. Plus, black powder can be overloaded. It is a weak powder and not weight sensitive like smokeless powder for maximum pressure. I load 45-70's with 75grs of FFg or FFFg, depending on the bullet used, with no adverse effect. The intent is to get the load into the sonic range so at long distance the bullet is travelling at a lesser subsonic speed. I also load 38-55's with 40 or 43gr of FFg. And MANY other BPCR overload or use a finer granulation or under load, the same as I do... including Don and cajun shooter. We know a champion match shooter that uses 80gr of FFFg Swiss 1.5 in a 45-70 reload with a specific bullet called the 'Money Bullet'. In fact, IIRC, Don has a bullet that he loads with 68grs of powder in a 45-70 that is very accurate in his rifle

[Don McDowell]

In the 1870's sharps and remington catalogs they reminded shooters that the most accurate loads were weighed to with in 1 gr or less. In the early 1900's Ned Roberts wrote about the importance of weighing charges and bullets. (just to keep from confusing things here we won't get into the chamber seating and air gap thing...)
Fast forward to recent history and Paul Matthews in the Lyman 48 manual suggests that the most accurate blackpowder loads in the 45-70 will be weighed to within .5 grain +-.
John I load 68 grs of Cartridge in the 45-70 with 530 gr bullets. I also use 65 grs of schuetzen 2f with 530's for nearly the same velocity and accuracy ( no the volume is not the same, not even close) I also shoot 72 grs of 2f express with 510 gr patched bullets. (72 grs because it's more accurate than 70). I've also shot 75 grs of 3f express with the 530's and chrono'ld that load into the 45-100 velocity range. Recoil is unpleasant and I'm not sure I would want to run that load over an 80 round match. Offhand loads I've been running 72 grs of cartridge with a 385 gr bullet. (Anybody wanna guess why 72 grs?)

[Gellot Wilde]

Because 72grs is the most accurate load with that bullet?

[Don McDowell]

z23 zingo! pass that man a cupey doll.

[Gellot Wilde]

[cajun shooter]

Jim, We are not trying to start a "WAR" either but when some one reads your post, they will say that guy posted that on the BP cartridge forum so he knows of what he speaks. And the snowball becomes larger. We have to speak out or it will become gospel and it is almost there.The old saying that you have to drink 8 glasses of water a day to live. It was even taught in medical schools and doctors told their patient. It was found to be false in just the last few years and no one has found where it started or by whom. The volume measure of BP is the same thing. You want another example. How many gun writers or people who know guns always say " I need another clip for my 45 auto. I have in the past tried to explain the difference and tell them it's a magazine. I no longer bother.

[DIRT Farmer]

Just a point if I rember corectly. When I started shooting BP more than 40 years ago the M/L rifle and pistol shooters allrefered to their loads as xx grains of powder. I shot 12 grains of ffg Dupont in my Tingle .41 which was the race gun of the day and yes it made a differance if weighed. The confusion started when Pydrox came out and the publish data said to use the same volume as black. Pydrox is appx. 80% of the weight of black by volume.
Old litature is often quoted as the long hunters would cover the ball in a cupped hand. When I have tried this it will give appx 1 grain per caliber of ball-50 grns for a 50 cal.

Just some history as I rember. I will leave the black powder cartridge to the guy who have studyed it as I am just begining to learn it.

Jim a big part of the problem with early M/L info is a majority of the people who knew and used it didn't or coulden't write it down, any why write it dowm any way, everyone knew it anyway, and so much knowlage was lost. Think of 100 years from now someone trying to figure out a fountain pen.

[Beekeeper]

Sorry guys if I left an impression I knew about BP!
In truth I am a complete newbe with zero experience with boack powder.
Have been a smokeless shooter since age 13.
(will not tell how many years) and because I bought a couple of antique rifles to restore (rebuild) the bug has bitten to shoot them.
Almost wish I had never gotten them.
But I do think they will be a hoot to shoot if I ever come up to speed on the learning curve.
I have read the books and everyone has their own way and no two the same.
I learned smokeless from my Grandfather ( sort of sitting on his knee thing) and I think if I ever find a BP shooter who will sit down with me and load the first couple of rounds I will be OK.
You can not understand how much the answers here have helped me to not make a lot of mistakes and I do appreciate it.


Dirt farmer,
You do not know how right you are about the fountain pin.
Alllready have a Granddaughter that asked how it worked and how to push the point out so she could write with it.


Jim