Powder measure

[dave roelle]

Hi cajun shooter:

The old "dram equivalents" you still ocassionally see on shotshell box specs were actually relating the "speed of the fired shot charge" relative the the "drams of black powder loaded" in the days when black powder was the only propellant used.

We are saying the same thing------------for a given shot charge "higher dram equivalents" yeild higher velocities---------------shot shells are loaded to velocity specs with pressure limits.

Hi charlie:

The bar stool thing has merit i love multi-taskers

[montana_charlie]

Just now, poured the TC Volumetric Measure to the 70gr mark. Beam balance weighed - 64.1gr

If you fill that measure with water, and weigh the liquid, what do you get?
CM

[Doc Highwall]

Some of this reminds me of when I was a kid and somebody said what weighs more a pound of butter or a pound of feathers. In the scientific world densities are compared to fresh water that has a density of (1) and different materials are compared by the volume of water that they displace. If you took a water vessel that could hold 100 grains of water and then you filled it with a object like black powder that has a density of .9 then the weight would be 90.0 grains of powder because the powder is only .9 times as dense as water. I do not know how to write the formula for density here but but it is read as M over V = D, Mass divided by volume equals density.

[cajun shooter]

Dave, We are not saying the same thing but you are still wired to think so. I will agree that if you have more powder then you will have a faster shot charge if that shot charge remains the same. If I put powder that equals 3 drams behind 1 1/2 oz of shot and then put it behind the 7/8 oz charge they are not the same. The word on the boxes read Dram Equivalent and was there as a reference on what the buyer could expect in the power of the shells as it related back to the amount of grains of powder contained in the shell. One dram was equal to 27.34 grains so a 3 Dram equivalent was the same as 82.02 grains of powder and my point of this thread. It was not a measure of volume.

[bigted]

ok ill chip one in here just becouse. i remember when the "fake" powders came out as well and that was the ONLY time i ever heard of volume for volume. before that took place there was NO refrence to a volume kinda load speficely. i shot loads of blackpowder way back when and had a hoot with it till some snobby ******** mentioned and asked what the volume load was i used. i had no idea as i spent my spare time shooting rather then reading those opinionated articles in the gun rags of the time and i just refered him to my ballance beam scale that i WEIGHED my loads with. i remember weighing them and storing them in film containers to take out for an enjoyable afternoon of shooting and tearing up the rodent population as well as table fare in quail n rabbit. ill not even get into the snob apeal of "barking" a bird or bushytail with a 45 cal ball.

so please go ahead with the descission of volume versus weighed loads...very entertaining indeed.

[John Boy]

If you fill that measure with water, and weigh the liquid, what do you get?

Charlie, you asked the question all wrong. My TC volumetric measure goes to the 125 'grain' mark. What you should have asked was:
If you fill the measure to the 100 grain mark with water and weigh it, what is the scale weight of the water in grains?
Answer: 100 grains
In case you are not familiar with the method for powder density calculations, this is a standard measurement test used by all powder manufacturers based on water (1.000 grain/cc) compared to the volumetric measurement of black and smokeless powders then weighed for density, where 1 cc of water weighs 1 gram. Dutch Bill aka Bill Knight in real life, the most authoritative expert of black powder in the US, explained this standard test several years ago in a thread on The Open Range

And if you are curious for the densities of various smokeless powders, buy a copy of Propellant Profiles, Fifth Edition. Many of all the powders listed in the reference book have bulk density numbers, ie. H335 is 1.01 for example

Here's another tidbit you can put in your references from the Profiles book:

With the lots I had on hand, Pinnacle FFg weighed 84.9 percent as much as Goex FFg black powder and Pinnacle FFFg weighed 84.0 percent as much as Goex FFFg

This is because Pinnacle was just a vat batch mix of the raw and heat degraded ascorbic acid with the potassium nitrate and charcoal v black powder ingredients mixed and compressed together in a Wheel Mill producing a much denser powder with the charcoal added in the polishing step

I have not done any of my own density testing comparing substitute powders to black powders because I don't shoot substitutes and could care less what their density is compared to original gunpowder

[dave roelle]

hi cajun shooter:

Never intended to start a rucus Never said anything about Volume relating to "drams"

have a nice day-------i'm gonna fire form some brass

dave

[Yellowhouse]

John Boy, my reference was to Goex 2fg from the 1980's and not the current cartridge, express or anything else. I don't pay a lot of attention to weight or volume until its determined where the powder column needs to be. Then that amount is weighed. And I just checked on two scales and a ML charger set at 70 gr. It weighed right at 70 grains. Who's right? Who cares as long as the powder/wad column is correct for the intended load?

[cajun shooter]

One last reply to you Dave R. You stated twice that the dram equivalent on a box of shot shells was the speed of the shot. That is what I was referring to when i said that you are wrong and it was there as a reference only and was not a unit by which shot speed is determined. I am 63 and will not argue with any one on this forum or any other but I will post what I feel is the correct information so that any newbie to our sport is not misinformed or led to believe incorrect information. I in no way think that I am the final answer on any subject that we speak about. In fact at my age I have learned a lot from our many forum members and hope to continue to do so. When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's I would hang around the gun stores on Saturday mornings. Some of those men that I listened tell stories were gun information genius and some that came in would only buy a shotgun with a 30 inch barrel that was full choked. They carried a dime in their pocket to check the choke. Later David

[waksupi]

Dram has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of shot. A dram equals 1/16 ounce of powder, black powder equivalent in this case. Shot measure is in equivalent volume.

[JanZ]

Weight measure vs volume measure using Hodgen's 777

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=94451


And for consistency I'll use the Lee powder measure to throw charges of consistent weight for better accuracy.

[John Boy]

John Boy, my reference was to Goex 2fg from the 1980's

Yellowhouse - your a lucky person. From 1972 to the early 1990's Goex was still using the DuPont processing standards to make quality at the Berlin plant in Moosic, PA. It's when they moved to Minden, LA in 1997 - changed their charcoal wood and 'decreased' processing standards IMHO, that the quality of Goex decreased. Accordingly, I'll surely agree your getting 70gr weight from the same volumetric measure

I've got some '60's Dupont. It's dense and the burn rate is excellent

In 1972, du Pont sold the Berlin Plant to Gearhart-Owen along with du Pont’s powder making “technology”. The “technology” being du Pont’s methods and standards used in the process of manufacturing various types of black powder used for various applications.
Source: Bill Knight

[montana_charlie]

What you should have asked was:
If you fill the measure to the 100 grain mark with water and weigh it, what is the scale weight of the water in grains?
Answer: 100 grains
In case you are not familiar with the method for powder density calculations, this is a standard measurement test used by all powder manufacturers based on water (1.000 grain/cc) compared to the volumetric measurement of black and smokeless powders then weighed for density, where 1 cc of water weighs 1 gram. Dutch Bill aka Bill Knight in real life, the most authoritative expert of black powder in the US, explained this standard test several years ago in a thread on The Open Range

I have a suspicion that water was used as the standard long before Dutch Bill was born. Back at the time black powder was just getting to be familiar, the actual weight of a 'grain' varied a little, depending on where the grain crop was harvested.

But water was a constant that worked for everybody.


BTW...
I wonder what the weight would be of .66 cubic inches of black powder.
That would be a volume about equal to three 'fluid' drams.

CM

[John Boy]

Jan, that's neat info on H777. Triple 7 is also made like Pinnacle, a vat mix process of sodium benzoate primarily and not made like black powder is

[JanZ]

Not to toss a handful of powder into the camp fire but my whole point was that there is a significant difference in weight measuring vs volume measurement and when I'm sitting there rolling fifty or so charges it's easier to throw those charges directly from my powder measure than it is to screw around with a flask and a teeny little brass measure.

If I'm going to load a batch of 25 grain (By volume) charges I know to set my powder measure to toss an 18.6 gn (By weight) charge and then go out and shoot up a storm the next day.

It would still be very interesting to see if all volumetric powder measures are created equal and I would hope that a few of the resident experts here would grab some 777 and do the same test and post the results to that other thread as a public service.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Heres what was posted in the other thread...

I use the little brass 5 to 50 measure from the Possibles shop and the weighing was done with my trusty Redding beam scale.

Each charge was tapped once to settle and struck off even with the top of the measure.

Volume gn ------Weight gn

5---------------3
10--------------7.2
15--------------10.4
20--------------14.7
25--------------18.6
30--------------21.9
35------------- 27.1
40------------- 30
35------------- 34.3
50--------------36.7

[Don McDowell]

If you go here and read it may dissolve some of the mystery about the proper use of 777
http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html
Pay particular attention to this paragraph

All charges of Triple Seven or Pyrodex should be measured by VOLUME not weight. A simple, adjustable blackpowder measure is the correct tool for this job. All loads listed in this brochure are measured by VOLUME.
Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.

[JanZ]

No mystery, a 5 gn volume measure weighs 3 grains on a scale, I want to shoot a 25 grain volume load it weighs 18.6 grains on a scale.

So in effect I am measuring by volume, I just know how much it weighs on a beam scale so I get accurate charges.

The Lee powder measure also measures out in volume just like the little brass muzzle loaders powder measure.

[Don McDowell]

[JanZ]

You don't seem to grasp the concept Don, they don't want you LOADING 777 by weight as you would get an obvious overcharge, it needs to be loaded by volume measure.

Now rather than post your sarcastic carp how's about you doing the measure & weigh like I did and see what your volume measure throws by weight.

As I stated before I shoot a 25 grain load (By volume) out of my ROA but that load weighs 18.6 grains on the beam scale.

So did I type this one too fast for you to comprehend?


I'll add that I did in fact call Hodgens and described exactly what I'm doing and why and the tech said it would work just fine as long as I adhered to the volume loading measurements

[Don McDowell]

Now rather than post your sarcastic carp how's about you doing the measure & weigh like I did and see what your volume measure throws by weight.

Just something for you to think about.
1. I don't shoot that fake ****, had some around once years ago, decided it was just another farse, and gave what I didn't use away, to a fella that was shooting the fake muzzleloaders .
2. This is the blackpowder cartridge forum, not the fake **** in Ruger old army's...

3. The OP in this thread wanted to know about making his own dipper measure for his rifle. Then someone trotted in with a batch of misinformation and backed it up by some links to more of the same...
So if you want to talk about reading comprehension we can surely do that....