Pre '64 M70 in .30-'06

[Marlin Junky]

Anyone else own one of these.

I'm getting ready to order a Spitzer boolit mold from V.Smith. Spitzer because the nose is lighter for any given boolit weight and my intention is to go fast (significantly faster than my old 336) and the M70 has only about 3/32" (perhaps even less!) of freebore. In case I'm misrepresenting "freebore", I'm referring to the rifling free section between the end of the neck (mouth) and the beginning of the rifling.

The molds I'm considering are either the 140 Spitzer or the (un-cataloged) 150 Spitzer.

MJ

[Ben]

my intention is to go fast


Maybe you're onto a strategy that I'm unaware of, but I've always been told that spitzers have a low velocity " ceiling " and when you cross that point, accuracy " heads south" in a hurry ? ? ?

Seems that is why a lot of people think that the 311413 isn't an accurate bullet, when in effect it is a very accurate bullet , but only within its velocity limitations ( less than 1750 fps. most of the time )

I'm not trying to be argumentative, if there is a way to do this, I'm all ears !

[George Tucker]

Pre 64 300H&H, Pre 64 .270 Win, Pre 64 30-06, in the 06 i like the old .308291 bullet.

[Marlin Junky]

my intention is to go fast


Maybe you're onto a strategy that I'm unaware of, but I've always been told that spitzers have a low velocity " ceiling " and when you cross that point, accuracy " heads south" in a hurry ? ? ?

Seems that is why a lot of people think that the 311413 isn't an accurate bullet, when in effect it is a very accurate bullet , but only within its velocity limitations ( less than 1750 fps. most of the time )

I'm not trying to be argumentative, if there is a way to do this, I'm all ears !

Ben,

The goal is to move the CG toward the boolit's base while seating the boolit out as far as possible (within the short throat restrictions).

I'm just wondering if this barrel will allow 2500+ velocities since it's a 1:10 twist with shallower grooves than my 336. My 336 with a bore/groove of .300/.3095 will handle 2350-2400 fps and shoot less than an inch (5 rounds) at 75 yards.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Pre 64 300H&H, Pre 64 .270 Win, Pre 64 30-06, in the 06 i like the old .308291 bullet.

How fast have you had 308291 up to and what do the groups look like at that speed? I'm shooting for HT'd 50/50 or 60/40 alloy (BHN 30) to register 2700 fps over the chronograph... gotta do 1MOA at 2700+ before I'm done.

MJ

[JIMinPHX]

Maybe look for a bore rider???

[Marlin Junky]

Maybe look for a bore rider???

Bore riders are too hard to fit and one needs a long, groove diameter, initial contact surface (a la LBT) when going for 2500+ fps in a 1:10" twist. It's better to have some boolit hanging into the shoulder/body area of the cartridge case and surround it with plastic shot buffer packed firmly against the charge. The best scenario is to have a longer throat but that'll have to come later.

MJ

I'd also like to trade a like new DC 245496 for a .30 caliber paper patch mold.

[geargnasher]

This may not help you much since you have a short throated gun, but I have a pre-'64 .30-'06 too and a member was asking me how I got over 2700 fps with reasonable accuracy.

Here's an excerpt from an old pm of mine:

"The boolit design was a 311284 I borrowed from a friend to test my gun with cast. Needed a longer-than-normal boolit the fit the throat correctly. I used the last of my old can of Hodgdon 4831 working this up last year, cussed myself for that when I started playing with my Swedes again, but powder has since returned to store shelves.

Keep in mind it shot much better at 2,400, in fact 2,450 or so was the "sweet spot" for the boolit I was testing. I couldn't claim any better than 2" at 100 yards much faster than that, but I was seeing for my self how far a cast boolit could be pushed. Lube is key also, I used a modified Felix lube with a touch of jojoba oil. I've since abandoned that project due to other shooting interests, but the .30-'06 is an excellent cartridge for cast and a good, medium-barreled sporter can really impress you if you tinker enough. I wish you luck."

I also used match brass, benchrest loading techniques, premium castings, and ruthless quality control of every step of the game. I eventually topped 2800fps but the groups died, I was still getting 2" ten-shot groups at 100 yards at 2700, though. Ten twist sporter, same as yours.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

This may not help you much since you have a short throated gun, but I have a pre-'64 .30-'06 too and a member was asking me how I got over 2700 fps with reasonable accuracy.

Here's an excerpt from an old pm of mine:

"The boolit design was a 311284 I borrowed from a friend to test my gun with cast. Needed a longer-than-normal boolit the fit the throat correctly. I used the last of my old can of Hodgdon 4831 working this up last year, cussed myself for that when I started playing with my Swedes again, but powder has since returned to store shelves.

Keep in mind it shot much better at 2,400, in fact 2,450 or so was the "sweet spot" for the boolit I was testing. I couldn't claim any better than 2" at 100 yards much faster than that, but I was seeing for my self how far a cast boolit could be pushed. Lube is key also, I used a modified Felix lube with a touch of jojoba oil. I've since abandoned that project due to other shooting interests, but the .30-'06 is an excellent cartridge for cast and a good, medium-barreled sporter can really impress you if you tinker enough. I wish you luck."

I also used match brass, benchrest loading techniques, premium castings, and ruthless quality control of every step of the game. I eventually topped 2800fps but the groups died, I was still getting 2" ten-shot groups at 100 yards at 2700, though. Ten twist sporter, same as yours.

Gear

Gear,

If you were doing all that with 200+ grain boolits, you were working at way higher pressure than I intend to. Veral has got me convinced a 150 Spitzer is just about right.

MJ

P.S. maybe you can help me decide what diameter boolit I should order. I'd like to be able to play around with .310" to .311" boolits. I think the groove diameter near the case mouth is near .309" but (I need to verify this) it'll chamber a .311" boolit without any rubbing.

[geargnasher]

Yup, you need to find a boolit that fits the throat in dimension as well as contour, has a more rounded, fat nose (NOT a spire point that can slump on firing), and still locate the gas check right at the base of the case neck.

Pressures weren't as high as you think by all normal signs, slow powder under a heavy boolit builds pressure quite nicely for the twist and keeps things from getting deformed. IIRC that boolit was about 212 grains fully dressed made out of wheel weights plus a pinch of tin.

150 grains or less will probably be about right, but have you tried the 311041? It's really good for short-throated .30 calibers. I have some if you want to try them, although they're from a Lee GB 6-banger and they aren't match-grade.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

If that is the same or sililar to the short nose SP full diameter 154 gr LBT bullet that Bass uses it will perform well up to 2500 fps. Bass got best results with RL19 but I did better with H4831. 5 shot groups of 1 1/2 to 2 moa at 100 yards were the norm for me out of 2 different '06s with 24" barrels (a Husky M98 and a M70). Occasionally a 1 moa groups or close to it could be sqeaked out at 100 yards with 3 shots but not often enough for me to claim it as a 1 moa load.

Both my rifles have short throats the same as yours. The LBT bullet was full diameter to the begining of the ogive. With the ogive just off the leade the GC was right at the base of the cartridge neck, just about perfect. I consider both the LBT bullet and Lyman's Lovern design 311466 (fits the case neck and throat identical to the LBT bullet and also has a short nose) to be the best designs, or at least the easiest to work with, for any consistent accuracy above 2300 fps in a 10" twist '06. At 2500 it will kill criters very well. Good luck on your quest.

Larry Gibson

[Nrut]

MJ,
If you are worried about your new boolit fitting your rifle, why don't you just make a throat slug and send it to Verl?.. That would be the best way to go IMO..

[Marlin Junky]

MJ

If that is the same or similar to the short nose SP full diameter 154 gr LBT bullet

Larry,

That sounds like a pretty good description!

that Bass uses it will perform well up to 2500 fps. Bass got best results with RL19 but I did better with H4831.

Did you guys try powdered shot buffer on top of a 90% load of something that burns a bit faster?

5 shot groups of 1 1/2 to 2 moa at 100 yards were the norm for me out of 2 different '06s with 24" barrels (a Husky M98 and a M70). Occasionally a 1 moa groups or close to it could be sqeaked out at 100 yards with 3 shots but not often enough for me to claim it as a 1 moa load.

That's a start... did you try LBT Soft Blue? What alloy and BHN were you working with?

Both my rifles have short throats the same as yours. The LBT bullet was full diameter to the begining of the ogive.

Yup, that's the design.

With the ogive just off the leade the GC was right at the base of the cartridge neck, just about perfect.

I've been measuring just to the commencement of the rifling and an actual chambered round may yield a longer COL since the throat has a very gradual leade into full engravement. I'm hoping the 150 will fit just as you have described.

I consider both the LBT bullet and Lyman's Lovern design 311466 (fits the case neck and throat identical to the LBT bullet and also has a short nose) to be the best designs, or at least the easiest to work with, for any consistent accuracy above 2300 fps in a 10" twist '06. At 2500 it will kill criters very well. Good luck on your quest.

Thank you!

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
If you are worried about your new boolit fitting your rifle, why don't you just make a throat slug and send it to Verl?.. That would be the best way to go IMO..

I do have some soft lead and I'm sure I can find an expendable '06 case. Making a throat slug is a good idea... even if it's just used to select the diameter boolit to order.

Thanks,
MJ

[shdwlkr]

I have an a pre 64 model 70 in 06 and have two molds that I want to try with it a 311041 group buy here, rcbs 180 grain spitser, and yes several flat nosed ones that get used in my levers.
Don't see any reason I can't get it to do what I want it to just need the time to play.

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

Did you guys try powdered shot buffer on top of a 90% load of something that burns a bit faster?


I did not as the loads were 80%+ case capacity. I don't recall whether Bass did or not. I just started with his suggestions with RL19. I didn't get very good or consistent results so I switched to H4831SC and had much better and consistent accuracy right away.

That's a start... did you try LBT Soft Blue? What alloy and BHN were you working with?

The bullets were cast by Bass and I don't know the exact alloy. They were hard though. I got 2 batches from Bass; both were lubed with LBT Soft and one batch was also covered with mica powder. I never noticed any accuracy difference. Attached are photo's of the LBT bullet and the 311466. You can see the loan fulldiameter bearing surface and short noses. Both at a perfect fit in most '06 cases with the GC being at the base of the cartridge neck and the shoulder just at the leade in the throat. Both are the bullets I recommend to push the RPM threshold in .30 cal cartridges.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

MJ

Did you guys try powdered shot buffer on top of a 90% load of something that burns a bit faster?


I did not as the loads were 80%+ case capacity. I don't recall whether Bass did or not. I just started with his suggestions with RL19. I didn't get very good or consistent results so I switched to H4831SC and had much better and consistent accuracy right away.

That's a start... did you try LBT Soft Blue? What alloy and BHN were you working with?

The bullets were cast by Bass and I don't know the exact alloy. They were hard though. I got 2 batches from Bass; both were lubed with LBT Soft and one batch was also covered with mica powder. I never noticed any accuracy difference. Attached are photo's of the LBT bullet and the 311466. You can see the loan fulldiameter bearing surface and short noses. Both at a perfect fit in most '06 cases with the GC being at the base of the cartridge neck and the shoulder just at the leade in the throat. Both are the bullets I recommend to push the RPM threshold in .30 cal cartridges.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

LBT: perfect

311466: not tough enough for max velocity (or maybe it is, I dunno fer sure. But I do know, I can't locate a mold!).

RPM threshold theory: insufficient evidence.

Sorry Larry, I couldn't resist... only because I know you're a good sport.

MJ

P.S. Don't hijack my thread!

[geargnasher]

Oh Jeeez

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Marlin Junky

LBT: perfect

That it is. If I didn't have two 311466 moulds (2 and 4 cavity) I would probably have the LBT mould.

311466: not tough enough for max velocity (or maybe it is, I dunno fer sure. But I do know, I can't locate a mold!).

Not sure what you mean about "tough enough". I shoot the 311466 with the same accuracy at the same velocity in both the .308W and the '06 as I did with the LBT bullet. Perhaps the "not knowing" and assumption is simply not having tested it?

RPM threshold theory: insufficient evidence.

Evidence? Yes that certainly requires a but let me just say; when you reach the point with that LBT bullet or any other cast bullet where accuracy goes bad or is not as good as you get at a lower velocity the load has exceeded the RPM threshold. It's really quite simple

Sorry Larry, I couldn't resist... only because I know you're a good sport.

That's not a problem MJ. It took me a long time to understand it also. The break through comes when you understand there are 3 distinct phases to ballistics; internal, external and terminal. The RPM threshold applies only in the external phases where it affects the bullet in flight. You've a good thread here and I hope I have added some contribution. It will be interesting to see the results you get with that LBT bullet in the 10" twist '06. Bass is very successful with it and I also achieved the same succes very quickly. When you achieve accuracy with that bullet at a velocity that you can't achieve accuracy at with a regular cast bullet then perhaps you'll understand and have "sufficient evidence".

Larry Gibson

[excess650]

Did Veral specifically recommend Blue Soft for your HV experiments?