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Thread: CB with 458 SOCOM?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike in co View Post
    SO WITH WICKAPEDIA BEING SUCH A WELL KNOWN SOURCE OF TRUTH...as in any one can post anything with no verification......and no military use noted in the post...
    someone adding "SOCOM" does not mean its a military gun/round.

    so who's military uses this rifle/cartridge ??

    mike in co......
    Why does this bother you so much? If a moderator feels it needs moved it will be. If they dont have an issue with it why should you and continue to make one out of it.
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike in co View Post
    SO WITH WICKAPEDIA BEING SUCH A WELL KNOWN SOURCE OF TRUTH...as in any one can post anything with no verification......and no military use noted in the post...
    someone adding "SOCOM" does not mean its a military gun/round.

    so who's military uses this rifle/cartridge ??

    mike in co......
    I have no idea if anyone in the military is using this round. I do know, that there are MANY other sources for the information referenced on Wiki for this round... Here are a couple...

    http://www.thegungarage.com/458%20SO...com%20page.htm
    http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/.458_SOCOM


    Here is an especially good one...
    http://www.military.com/entertainmen...458-socom.html

  3. #23
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Just ignore Mike he does this to everyone.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
    I'm going to be using 405gr Barnes Bone Busters (Loaded at 1750+FPS/2700 KE)... from what I've read, they are one of the most penetrating rounds out there for the 458 caliber.

    This is being used as a brush gun in AK (Where I live). It will double duty as close quarters bear protection, and moose/bear hunting.

    IMO this is the perfect weapon for this scope of duty. It collapses smaller than a 45-70 Guide gun for carry in the thicket, carries almost the umph, and holds 12 rounds in a single (Standard AR-15) magazine, and sits on a semi-auto AR platform... pretty hard to beat for what we're doing...
    Do you have load data for that particular bullet?
    Assuming it's one of Barnes solid copper alloy bullets it will be longer than a lead core bullet so may take up more case capacity . Which your round would seam not to have much to spare. But I've never paused over 458 SOCOM data. Sounds like quite a punch form a little case.

    You really don't have to worry about tearing up any 458 bullet designed for monsters like the 458 Win mag. Even the soft points should stay together just fine. I'm no fan of those copper bullets but others are and they've actually used them.

    Sounds like you have a mind changer of a bear gun here. I've tracked wounded black bear at night in the brush and that 458 AR would have been very welcome. If that rifle has a flash hider muzzle devise that aids in night blinding you I'd personally remove it. A muzzle brake may be worth the cost. Bears don't shoot back so you really don't need a flash hider. Go out on a moonless night. Give your eyes twenty minutes to dilate your pupils then fire one off. It's no small concern. I shot a somewhat vicious 80 lb animal one night with a 357 mag revolver. Was seeing stars for several seconds while pointing that big S&W 27 in it's last known direction while sweeping my tail with my left hand. I was young then and wanted to keep my *** attached. When my eyes quit star bursting he laid deader than dead at my feet. Point is it does little good to have a dozen rounds in your mag if you can't see after the first shot. On the other hand the big 357 mag did the job with one shot. Always one to search for perfection to a fault I figured there was some room for improvement in that situation.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    I do have load data... I'll see if I can find the link again. I have it in a spread sheet. Good point about the bird cage. Mine is a buzzle break though, no flash hider to speak of. I will go see what it looks like in the dark though... although I run a sure fire on the front when in the CQ dark woods situations, so that would probably help... but again, definatly going to try it...

    Here's the link to the load data I have for it...

    http://homepage.mac.com/jonesja/458S...Sharing34.html

    Thanks again for the input on all of this... I'd really like to make these "boolits" work, or find some that will, that aren't ridiculously priced...

  6. #26
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
    I would be interested for sure if these Can these be pushed out to 1700-1800 FPS..

    As far as cycling goes, I'd prob like to try 20 or so before I bought a large amount. Price would also be fact as well. These "No namer" cast rounds were only like $50 for 250 of them, that was pretty attractive, and was a factor in the purchase decision..

    If I could practice shoot/plink and hunt with the same round... that would be ideal.
    That's a fair price for big bullets. With those at almost an ounce the lead alone is around $8.40 per 100 bullets.

    First I'd like to point out the obvious in that in a defensive roll against bears. Flatter trajectory from high velocity is meaningless.

    Bullet in my photo is a gas check design as you can see. In something big like a 45-70 you'd be able to run them up around 2,000 fps. In a Ruger No1. Not in a lever gun. A larger case will allow the use of copious amounts of powder to get it going without exceeding the bullets pressure limits.

    As I wrote before I'll bet a cast boolit will enable you to load a round with all the recoil you can stand.
    Then there is that night flash issue with high pressure rounds. Actually that small case 458 SOCOM may have a great advantage in flash level over the big cases which would use much more powder. Just a theory in my head.

    I don't know the details of rifling and barrel dimensions of the SOCOM so can't zero in on any exact numbers. Also never felt the AR platform recoil behind a 458 SOCOM.

    I'd recommend you load up some of our 405's to see what velocity you like. Then I can use an alloy tailored to that velocity or even above ? for my gas checked bullets. Those low priced bevel based bullets at under 1500 fps are nothing to sneeze at either. But if the SOCOM needs high pressure to even reach over 1400 fps a gas check will be needed to do that. I'll look at that laod data you linked to. Is it Friday yet? There's a reason all the big 45 safari guns weigh well over 8 1/2 pounds.

    In summation for a defense against 800 pound bears. I'd load a 405 grain bullet to 1400 fps then work on a powder that did not blind me when shot in the pitch dark. Lower velocity will allow you to use a faster powder that will have a lower muzzle blast. If no one has ever figured this out for the 458 SOCAOM someone needs to. If after some shooting you can get more velocity then all the better.
    If the slower powders don't blind you at night then all the better. With that small for caliber case I'd think a low flash laod woudl be easy to find. A huge plus for anyone in the dark.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    That's a fair price for big bullets. With those at almost an ounce the lead alone is around $8.40 per 100 bullets.

    First I'd like to point out the obvious in that in a defensive roll against bears. Flatter trajectory from high velocity is meaningless.

    Bullet in my photo is a gas check design as you can see. In something big like a 45-70 you'd be able to run them up around 2,000 fps. In a Ruger No1. Not in a lever gun. A larger case will allow the use of copious amounts of powder to get it going without exceeding the bullets pressure limits.

    As I wrote before I'll bet a cast boolit will enable you to load a round with all the recoil you can stand.
    Then there is that night flash issue with high pressure rounds. Actually that small case 458 SOCOM may have a great advantage in flash level over the big cases which would use much more powder. Just a theory in my head.

    I don't know the details of rifling and barrel dimensions of the SOCOM so can't zero in on any exact numbers. Also never felt the AR platform recoil behind a 458 SOCOM.

    I'd recommend you load up some of our 405's to see what velocity you like. Then I can use an alloy tailored to that velocity or even above ? for my gas checked bullets. Those low priced bevel based bullets at under 1500 fps are nothing to sneeze at either. But if the SOCOM needs high pressure to even reach over 1400 fps a gas check will be needed to do that. I'll look at that laod data you linked to. Is it Friday yet? There's a reason all the big 45 safari guns weigh well over 8 1/2 pounds.

    In summation for a defense against 800 pound bears. I'd load a 405 grain bullet to 1400 fps then work on a powder that did not blind me when shot in the pitch dark. Lower velocity will allow you to use a faster powder that will have a lower muzzle blast. If no one has ever figured this out for the 458 SOCAOM someone needs to. If after some shooting you can get more velocity then all the better.
    If the slower powders don't blind you at night then all the better. With that small for caliber case I'd think a low flash laod woudl be easy to find. A huge plus for anyone in the dark.
    Is there a charge you can reccomend? The most common I've seen is Lil Gun, IMR3031, H110, and IMR4198... with Lil Gun being the most common of all of them, especially at that weight... Or would that require me shipping you my rifle with brass and $$....lol

  8. #28
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    Tony,
    Not sure if anyone actually answered you on how to attach a gascheck. I use a lyman 450 lubrasizer (Sizes bullet to correct diameter and squirts lube in the groove at the same time). I place the check on the reduced portion on the base of the bullet and run it through the sizer. The action of sizing the bullet also sizes the check. This crimps the check to the base of the bullet.

    I do not use the push through sizers, but I would imagine you would want to base size first with gas checks. Drop me a pm if you have more questions and I will see if I can send some pictures of the whole process.
    Last edited by 7br; 09-17-2010 at 09:12 AM. Reason: correct typoo
    7br aka Mark B.

    On the internet, I am 6ft tall, good looking and can dance.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7br View Post
    Tony,
    Not sure if anyone actually answered you on how to attach a gascheck. I use a lyman 450 lubrasizer (Sizes bullet to correct diameter and squirts lube in the groove at the same time). I place the check on the reduced portion on the base of the bullet and run it through the sizer. The action of sizing the bullet also sizes the check. This crimps the check to the base of the bullet.

    I do not use the push through sizers, but I would imagine you would want to base size first with gas checks. Drop me a pm if you have more questions and I will see if I can send some pictures of the whole process.
    I think I've determined that if I'm going to use GC, im going to buy the bullets with them already attached. One less step for me, and it seems to be minimally more expensive.

    Thanks for the info though, if I get to that stage in my reloading development, I'll definatly shoot you a PM for more info...

    Thanks again for all the info

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy Old Coot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
    I have no idea if anyone in the military is using this round. I do know, that there are MANY other sources for the information referenced on Wiki for this round... Here are a couple...

    http://www.thegungarage.com/458%20SO...com%20page.htm
    http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/.458_SOCOM


    Here is an especially good one...
    http://www.military.com/entertainmen...458-socom.html
    Actually We are. They used (and probably still do) the round at traffic stops in Iraq and Afganistan. It does a better job of penetrating wind shields than the 5.56 round.

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Coot View Post
    Actually We are. They used (and probably still do) the round at traffic stops in Iraq and Afganistan. It does a better job of penetrating wind shields than the 5.56 round.
    Sheesh... the term overkill comes to mind....lol

    Just the Corbon JHP 300gr rounds I have will go through 1/4 DOM tubing (Which is denser and stronger than Sch80 steel for comparison).

    I can't imagine what a heaver hotter load would do.... (However, shortly I will know...and will report back )

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    simple little things in life, like putting a question in the proper forum.

    if one cannot do the simple things, how can any one expect the same person to do more complicated tasks......

    your right...i do it whenever i see some put a post in the WRONG forum.


    mike in co
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Coot View Post
    Actually We are. They used (and probably still do) the round at traffic stops in Iraq and Afganistan. It does a better job of penetrating wind shields than the 5.56 round.
    can you firnish documentation ???

    ( i ant saying it aint..i would like to see some facts. )

    thanks
    mike in co
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  14. #34
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    After firing a very few of those 405-grainers @ 1700 fps, you might achieve an awakening regarding recoil...
    Echo
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    One of the most endearing sights in the world is the vision of a naked good-looking woman leaving the bedroom to make breakfast. Bolivar Shagnasty (I believe that Lazarus Long also said it, but I can't find any record of it.)

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike in co View Post
    simple little things in life, like putting a question in the proper forum.

    if one cannot do the simple things, how can any one expect the same person to do more complicated tasks......

    your right...i do it whenever i see some put a post in the WRONG forum.


    mike in co
    Thanks for that. To insinuate that a person cannot carry out complicated tasks because he or she starts a thread in the forum that you claim to be ill placed...Really?.. its been here for a few days now, with much attention... you'd think that if a moderator agreed with you, it would have been moved... what does that say about you and your opinion?

    Hows the weather on your planet? Oh wait, probably no windows in your bunker... my bad.. hope that canned food is keeping your belly full...

    Anyways, I hope the ignore feature works on this site... guess I'm about to find out...
    Last edited by TonyM; 09-17-2010 at 10:53 PM.

  16. #36
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    so with a 400 in 458 socom with an ar platform 16" bbl?,colapsable buttstock......7 lbs ??

    1700 fps..is only 125ftlbs of recoil...so how much do you weigh ??


    seems like a shotgun semi auto with slugs would be much cheaper........with maybe half or less recoil.......


    mike in co
    Last edited by mike in co; 09-17-2010 at 10:52 PM.
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    After firing a very few of those 405-grainers @ 1700 fps, you might achieve an awakening regarding recoil...
    You very well may be right.... I plan on finding out for sure though...

    I have lots of faith in my buffer spring though... its made for this round (I'm not using the 223 buffer spring, or there would be NO QUESTION the recoil would be punishing).

    Again, I already have some 1500FPS 405s loaded, i'll report back tomorrow with the results...

  18. #38
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Ok well... after shooting my initial loads, I'm impressed with the overall shootability so far. Not much more kick than a light load 45-70 (Almost reminds me of the 45-70 GOV Remington loads, the ones in the green boxes that Walmart sells).

    However, I'm not sure whats up with the accuracy... Even at 40 yards, my groups are horrendous (From a bench even). On a 12" by 18" target, it's about 4-5". At 75 yards, Im not even on paper. I ran some trajectory calculations, and even at the most wind variation, I should atleast be on paper. But I'm not. I checked the barrel after the first 10 rounds, and I did notice there was some "Debris" in the barrel, so I cleaned it real well.. and continued shooting with the same results. After I was done shooting another 20 rnds, I checked the barrel, and again, there was some "Debris". Not anything real major, but definatly noticable. When I ran solvent/swabs through the barrel again, they came out pretty dirty.

    I also notice, my brass is dirtier than usual as well. Way dirtier...

    The powders I am using are H4198 and Lil Gun (Both are the most prevalent charges I've found for this round). Are these powders typically this dirty?

    The JHP 300s that I was shooting, are 2" MOA consistantly.

    The barrel twist is 1:14 (Same as 45-70)

    I'm going to load some more, but this time I'm going to shoot for 1400FPS, and see if that helps...

    Anyone else have any other ideas?

  19. #39
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    GabbyM,

    That looks nice!!!

    TonyM,

    Hang in there, you'll get it!

    You were asking about gas checks and nose first etc.

    To seat a gas check you need a bullet sizing die. Lee makes a series that fits a standard reloading press. Other manufacturers build their own special press. These are refered to as Lubrisizers.

    A lubrisizer lubes the boolit (fills the lube groove with boolit lube), sizes the slug and IF a gas check is inserted at the base of the boolit at the time of insertion ...... installs it as well.

    A boolit needs to have dropped from a mold that's cut for a gas check for you to be able to install one.

    As Larry Gibson pointed out, you can get by with certain gas checks on some beveled bases ...... but as a rule of thumb ...... you need a gas check shanked boolit to have a gas checked boolit.

    Nose first, base first:

    This refers to the sizing opperation and whether the lubrisizer/die combo is meant to have the boolit inserted nose first or base first. Most setups are base first. Many folks like nose first, especially with long range target or hunting applications. The reason is that the boolit base and how squarely it's sized actually carries more influence than the nose.

    ************************

    I have been thinking about a heavy caliber upper for an AR15 for sometime ....... and this is certainly an interesting thread for me ......... there are a bunch of competing designs and I am wondering which one will stand the test of time and which will have brass available once the dust settles!

    Best of luck

    Three 44s

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three44s View Post
    GabbyM,

    That looks nice!!!

    TonyM,

    Hang in there, you'll get it!

    You were asking about gas checks and nose first etc.

    To seat a gas check you need a bullet sizing die. Lee makes a series that fits a standard reloading press. Other manufacturers build their own special press. These are refered to as Lubrisizers.

    A lubrisizer lubes the boolit (fills the lube groove with boolit lube), sizes the slug and IF a gas check is inserted at the base of the boolit at the time of insertion ...... installs it as well.

    A boolit needs to have dropped from a mold that's cut for a gas check for you to be able to install one.

    As Larry Gibson pointed out, you can get by with certain gas checks on some beveled bases ...... but as a rule of thumb ...... you need a gas check shanked boolit to have a gas checked boolit.

    Nose first, base first:

    This refers to the sizing opperation and whether the lubrisizer/die combo is meant to have the boolit inserted nose first or base first. Most setups are base first. Many folks like nose first, especially with long range target or hunting applications. The reason is that the boolit base and how squarely it's sized actually carries more influence than the nose.

    ************************

    I have been thinking about a heavy caliber upper for an AR15 for sometime ....... and this is certainly an interesting thread for me ......... there are a bunch of competing designs and I am wondering which one will stand the test of time and which will have brass available once the dust settles!

    Best of luck

    Three 44s
    I see. Thanks for explaining that...

    I've determined that with the amount of umph that is coming with these new loads, I am going to replace my scope. I have a crappy NC Star tactical 3x9 and it is definatly a factor that needs to be dealt with. I just ordered a Leupold Scout scope (I've had VERY good results with these on my 45-70), so atleast I'll be able to rule optics out.

    The reason why I went with this platform, is because it is the most standardized to the rest of the AR platform. The 458 uses the same 223 AR magazines (11 rounds fit into a standard 30rnd mag). Also, you don't HAVE to change out the buffer spring (Although it is recomended, RRA sells one specifically for this upper), and you don't have to do ANYTHING to the lower. It is literally plug and play.

    There are no special mags, or anything like that, and that kind of standardization is what sold me on the rifle.

    Graf and sons has tens of thousands of brass in stock, and it is reasonably priced for being such an oddball case. Also, any 458 diameter boolit will work in the case (Atleast all that I have seen), and they are readily available just about everywhere.

    I don't know much about the other calibers (Bullet availability, etc), but I do know they take special mags... and that was a big turn off for me. I can find AR15 mags in the woods, they are everywhere it seems... so no shortage of those for sure.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check