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Thread: CB with 458 SOCOM?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    CB with 458 SOCOM?

    I recently purchased a 458 socom, and I am going to be reloading ammo for it. I purchased a box of 250 HSM 405gr .458" Lead (Still trying to figure out of they are cast or not, box did not say) bullets. Also, trying to figure out if the rings on the bullets are gas check or lube rings... which again, the box does not say anything regarding that either (I will try and get pictures here shortly).


    Picture... after some more looking around... I'm thinking this is a lead bullet with a lube ring....?

    Last edited by TonyM; 09-09-2010 at 09:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master hicard's Avatar
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    Don't know about HSM 405gr bullets but I use the Gould 330 gr hp pb with 28-32 grs of IMR 4198 for a real pleasant hunting load. I try and keep mine at 45-70 Springfield trapdoor pressures.
    Last edited by hicard; 10-16-2010 at 10:06 PM.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hicard View Post
    Don't know about HSM 250 bullets but I use the Gould 330 gr hp pb with 28-32 grs of IMR 4198 for a real pleasant hunting load. I try and keep mine at 45-70 Springfield pressures.
    These are just for plinking/practice... I have some 400 Busters I'll be using for my hunting load. ( 48-50 IMR3031 behind the 400s, for about 1800 FPS and 2700Lbs/KE

    I'm wondering if these lead bullets will be able to be pushed at 1800 FPS....?

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    OK... after some more reading... these are definatly not "Gas checked"...lol

    Still unsure if these are cast or not....


    However, I notice you can buy the gas check plates for the bottom of the bullet... what is the most common method of fixing the gas check to the bottom of the bullet?
    (I hadn't even heard the term "Gas Check" until about 6 hours ago so... I'm a little green obviously...lol)

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I cast some Lee 405's for a friend of mine that shoots the SOCOM. His rifle didnt care for them. I believe he ended up ordering some 300 gr GC's from Vern at Glenhills Bullets, and he said they performed very well for him.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    7br's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
    OK... after some more reading... these are definatly not "Gas checked"...lol

    Still unsure if these are cast or not....


    However, I notice you can buy the gas check plates for the bottom of the bullet... what is the most common method of fixing the gas check to the bottom of the bullet?
    (I hadn't even heard the term "Gas Check" until about 6 hours ago so... I'm a little green obviously...lol)
    Welcome aboard Tony. Gas checks generally crimp on. They serve several purposes which get argued about quite a bit. In my belief, they strengthen the base of the bullet to prevent the lead from stripping in the rifling. Some folks feel that they also tend to scrape lead fouling from the barrel on the way down. Lastly, some folks feel they keep hot gases from eroding the base of the bullet.

    I usually use them when velocities go above 1200 fps or when I need the best accuracy. (200 meter rams in IHMSA) In my opinion, bullet fit is probably more important. Generally thought that about .001in over groove size is right.
    7br aka Mark B.

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  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7br View Post
    Welcome aboard Tony. Gas checks generally crimp on. They serve several purposes which get argued about quite a bit. In my belief, they strengthen the base of the bullet to prevent the lead from stripping in the rifling. Some folks feel that they also tend to scrape lead fouling from the barrel on the way down. Lastly, some folks feel they keep hot gases from eroding the base of the bullet.

    I usually use them when velocities go above 1200 fps or when I need the best accuracy. (200 meter rams in IHMSA) In my opinion, bullet fit is probably more important. Generally thought that about .001in over groove size is right.
    Thanks for the info

    I've been doing some reading about how to crimp gas checks on. However, I am confused about the reference to specific dies for this?

    I have read about people who do "Nose first" or "base first" when crimping a gas check... I cannot picture this process...

    Thanks again for the info on this... I'm trying to learn about all of this, hopefully overcome my noob soon...lol

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Its ok, we were all noobs at one point, Im still a noob.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    That looks like a lot of bullet for a 458 SOCAOM but then I don't have one.
    The base on your bullet is a bevel base. Gas check bullets have a reduced diameter straight shank for fitting the check.
    I would not think you'd need a gas check for that heavy a bullet. Chose a load of about 34,000 psi using the slowest powder listed and see what you get. You should be good up to around 1450 fps with the bevel base. Keep in mind a Trap Door Springfield shot the 405 grain bullet at 1200 fps on a good day. So don't think you need to run that brick of a bullet very fast.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    The consensus is that a gas check is helpful in AR type rifles, so far from what I have learned. Prevents any hot gas from eroding the base of the boolit when passing the gas port on these guns. I am working with GC boolits with my 450 bushmaster and later with my 458 socom. I bought some rifle style gas checks from Blammer here (group buys and dj's corner for the rifle checks) as they are taller than Hornady checks and might work better. I much prefer a boolit of around 350gr for my Socom, but 400's should work well too.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    So what does the process of affixing a check to a boolit consist of? Do I need any extra equipment to do it? (Besides the check of course)

    Also, with the bottom of my bullets not being beveled, can I not check them? Can I bevel the bullet myself?

    Thanks again for the info guys.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Also..I am going to be using IMR3031 for the charge... any known issues with that powder shooting cast bullets 1700+ FPS?

    Thanks again for the input

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    so who's military uses this rifle/cartridge ??
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  14. #14
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    TonyM

    Those are cast bullets. The "ring" is the lube (not much there for the long bearing surface). The bases are beveled as mentioned and are not for GCs. Sometimes, if there is enough bevel one can attach the Horandy crimp on GCs to them. It does not appear there is enough bevel for that. A bullet designed for a GC is the best and most possitive way to have GC'd bullets. I shoot a similar commercial cast bullet In my 45-70s. Accuracy is real good up through 1580 fps but gets pretty bad after that. I am not familiar with loads for the SOCOM cartridge but suggest you keep that bullet in the 1400 fps range, as suggested by others, for best results.

    Larry Gibson

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike in co View Post
    so who's military uses this rifle/cartridge ??
    I'm not sure.... but have a read...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_SOCOM

    From the link above...

    "Inspired by a lack of stopping power offered by the 5.56 NATO cartridge used in the M4 and the M16, the .458 SOCOM came about from informal discussion of members of the special operations community, specifically Task Force Ranger's experience that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force in Mogadishu during Operation Gothic Serpent. Marty ter Weeme designed the cartridge in 2000 and Tony Rumore of Tromix, Inc was contracted to build the first .458 SOCOM rifle in February 2001.
    The project sponsor set forth a number of specific requirements that led to the ultimate design as it stands right now: The cartridge had to fit in the M-4 platform and magazines, be capable of firing heavy-for-caliber projectiles at subsonic velocity using suppressors. During the developments phase, various other cartridges were considered and proposed to the project sponsor, but rejected as not meeting all the requirements. The cartridges considered were 7.6239mm M43, 939mm Grom, .45 Professional (which has since become the .450 Bushmaster), and .50 Action Express. At the time, the .499 LWR cartridge was still in development phase and had not been chambered commercially.

    The .45 Professional was ruled out because in an interview with industry press, the developer of said cartridge stated that steel proprietary to General Motors was used in the bolts and extensions to withstand the high operating pressures. The .50 AE and .499 LWR were ruled out because in 2000 only two bullets were offered in .501 diameter, both developed as pistol bullets for the .50 AE and not heavy enough for the subsonic suppressed role. Research had indicated that a short belted cartridge called the .458 1.5" Barnes had been adopted for use in suppressed bolt action rifles for use in SE Asia during the Vietnam War. It was shown as effective in terms of ballistics, firing a 500 grain bullet subsonically, but not ideally suited for its role due to the size and weight of the platform. Combined with the wide selection of bullets available in .458 diameter, this cemented the choice of caliber.

    The cartridge case design was finalized based on discussions with Tony Rumore at Tromix, Inc. suggesting a lengthened .50 AE case would work well in the magazines as well as be the largest diameter case to be able to feed through the barrel extension. The rim size was chosen for compatibility with other platforms, primarily bolt action rifles, as the .473" diameter rim is arguably the most common rim size globally (all bolt actions chambered in 7.9257mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield or .308 Winchester share this rim size). The case length was chosen to be compatible with the Barnes 300-grain X Spitzer bullet. In 2009, Barnes developed a new bullet specifically for use in the .458 SOCOM, the 300 grain Tipped Triple Shock X, also known as the TTSX or TAC-X."

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    TonyM

    Those are cast bullets. The "ring" is the lube (not much there for the long bearing surface). The bases are beveled as mentioned and are not for GCs. Sometimes, if there is enough bevel one can attach the Horandy crimp on GCs to them. It does not appear there is enough bevel for that. A bullet designed for a GC is the best and most possitive way to have GC'd bullets. I shoot a similar commercial cast bullet In my 45-70s. Accuracy is real good up through 1580 fps but gets pretty bad after that. I am not familiar with loads for the SOCOM cartridge but suggest you keep that bullet in the 1400 fps range, as suggested by others, for best results.

    Larry Gibson
    Thanks for that, very good info. I'm thinking I'm going to start these at 1500 FPS, and see what they do. My hunting loads are going to be closer to 1800 FPS, so we'll see what kind of variation I get MOA.

    If it's not reliable/consistant/close with my hunting round, than they will be for plinking only.... dummed down to 1400ish...

    Thanks again for the input

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
    I'm not sure.... but have a read...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_SOCOM

    From the link above...

    "Inspired by a lack of stopping power offered by the 5.56 NATO cartridge used in the M4 and the M16, the .458 SOCOM came about from informal discussion of members of the special operations community, specifically Task Force Ranger's experience that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force in Mogadishu during Operation Gothic Serpent. Marty ter Weeme designed the cartridge in 2000 and Tony Rumore of Tromix, Inc was contracted to build the first .458 SOCOM rifle in February 2001.
    The project sponsor set forth a number of specific requirements that led to the ultimate design as it stands right now: The cartridge had to fit in the M-4 platform and magazines, be capable of firing heavy-for-caliber projectiles at subsonic velocity using suppressors. During the developments phase, various other cartridges were considered and proposed to the project sponsor, but rejected as not meeting all the requirements. The cartridges considered were 7.6239mm M43, 939mm Grom, .45 Professional (which has since become the .450 Bushmaster), and .50 Action Express. At the time, the .499 LWR cartridge was still in development phase and had not been chambered commercially.

    The .45 Professional was ruled out because in an interview with industry press, the developer of said cartridge stated that steel proprietary to General Motors was used in the bolts and extensions to withstand the high operating pressures. The .50 AE and .499 LWR were ruled out because in 2000 only two bullets were offered in .501 diameter, both developed as pistol bullets for the .50 AE and not heavy enough for the subsonic suppressed role. Research had indicated that a short belted cartridge called the .458 1.5" Barnes had been adopted for use in suppressed bolt action rifles for use in SE Asia during the Vietnam War. It was shown as effective in terms of ballistics, firing a 500 grain bullet subsonically, but not ideally suited for its role due to the size and weight of the platform. Combined with the wide selection of bullets available in .458 diameter, this cemented the choice of caliber.

    The cartridge case design was finalized based on discussions with Tony Rumore at Tromix, Inc. suggesting a lengthened .50 AE case would work well in the magazines as well as be the largest diameter case to be able to feed through the barrel extension. The rim size was chosen for compatibility with other platforms, primarily bolt action rifles, as the .473" diameter rim is arguably the most common rim size globally (all bolt actions chambered in 7.9257mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield or .308 Winchester share this rim size). The case length was chosen to be compatible with the Barnes 300-grain X Spitzer bullet. In 2009, Barnes developed a new bullet specifically for use in the .458 SOCOM, the 300 grain Tipped Triple Shock X, also known as the TTSX or TAC-X."



    :
    SO WITH WICKAPEDIA BEING SUCH A WELL KNOWN SOURCE OF TRUTH...as in any one can post anything with no verification......and no military use noted in the post...
    someone adding "SOCOM" does not mean its a military gun/round.

    so who's military uses this rifle/cartridge ??

    mike in co......
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  17. #17
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    After you shoot those 405's at 1500 you may decide it's enough gun.

    Black powder load for 45-70 with a 405 grain runs around 1200 fps and was adequate to clear the plains of buffalo.

    What's your "hunting load"? What critter are you targeting?

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    After you shoot those 405's at 1500 you may decide it's enough gun.

    Black powder load for 45-70 with a 405 grain runs around 1200 fps and was adequate to clear the plains of buffalo.

    What's your "hunting load"? What critter are you targeting?
    I'm going to be using 405gr Barnes Bone Busters (Loaded at 1750+FPS/2700 KE)... from what I've read, they are one of the most penetrating rounds out there for the 458 caliber.

    This is being used as a brush gun in AK (Where I live). It will double duty as close quarters bear protection, and moose/bear hunting.

    IMO this is the perfect weapon for this scope of duty. It collapses smaller than a 45-70 Guide gun for carry in the thicket, carries almost the umph, and holds 12 rounds in a single (Standard AR-15) magazine, and sits on a semi-auto AR platform... pretty hard to beat for what we're doing...

  19. #19
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    We like BOOLITS here. Photo is 410 grain falt nose from a group buy Lee six cavity mould. Can't recal if we call this a LFN (long flat nose) or a WFN (wide flat nose). Designed to feed and chamber in a Marlin Lever gun. Definitely a dinosaur killer. If a big flat nose would feed in the SOCOM. We can make these to suit our desires. Hard to stay together for deep penetration or soften the alloy up for an expanding bullet. Large caliber rifle bullets are easy to work with. It's hard to ruin something that big.

    Let me now if you'd like to try some of those.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy TonyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post

    We like BOOLITS here. Photo is 410 grain falt nose from a group buy Lee six cavity mould. Can't recal if we call this a LFN (long flat nose) or a WFN (wide flat nose). Designed to feed and chamber in a Marlin Lever gun. Definitely a dinosaur killer. If a big flat nose would feed in the SOCOM. We can make these to suit our desires. Hard to stay together for deep penetration or soften the alloy up for an expanding bullet. Large caliber rifle bullets are easy to work with. It's hard to ruin something that big.

    Let me now if you'd like to try some of those.
    I would be interested for sure if these Can these be pushed out to 1700-1800 FPS..

    As far as cycling goes, I'd prob like to try 20 or so before I bought a large amount. Price would also be fact as well. These "No namer" cast rounds were only like $50 for 250 of them, that was pretty attractive, and was a factor in the purchase decision..

    If I could practice shoot/plink and hunt with the same round... that would be ideal.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check