dropping boolits in water from the mold?

[jeff223]

Lee mold making a gas checked boolit using wheel weights for lead should i drop the boolits in water from the mold to cool them?i read this makes the boolit harder.

please tell me what to do as i dont know any thing about casting boolits other than alittle of what i read here.

do you feel a boolit made with wheel weights that are water quenched are hard enough?these will be boolits used in a 357max contender for general shooting and hunting deer,

thanks for any responces
jeff

[Bass Ackward]

Lee mold making a gas checked boolit using wheel weights for lead should i drop the boolits in water from the mold to cool them? i read this makes the boolit harder.

please tell me what to do as i dont know any thing about casting boolits other than alittle of what i read here.

do you feel a boolit made with wheel weights that are water quenched are hard enough?these will be boolits used in a 357max contender for general shooting and hunting deer,

thanks for any responces
jeff

Jeff,

Yes and yes. Now you need a Lyman manual bad son. Makes good library material.

Then you should send a PM to JohnH. You guys need to become buds.

[David R]

I have dropped my boolets in water from the mold, it works. They are harder and shoot fine. Just try to dent them with your fingernail.

Now I use gas checks so I don't bother trying to make them harder. I shoot 44 mag and 45 colt. 45 ACP doesn't need hard boolets.

[azrednek]

David, which gas checked molds are you using for 45??

[Ricochet]

To get the best effect of quenching the alloy for hardness, and consistent hardness from bullet, to bullet, I believe it's important to drop the bullet as soon as possible after the sprue has hardened enough to cut it off, and to develop a rhythm so that the timing of the drop is consistent. You want the quenching to occur before the antimony crystals have begun to crystallize out from "solid solution" in the alloy. If some of the bullets have cooled more than others before quenching, this process may have begun to occur in some of the bullets but not others. I think consistency is the only advantage to be gained from batch-treating bullets with oven heating.

I like to water drop bullets, even when the extra hardness isn't needed. I ruin more bullets from dropping them on each other when they're soft when I don't water drop them. That's just klutzy me, though.

[David R]

David, which gas checked molds are you using for 45??

Lyman 452424, 255 gr gas check. Kieth style, good looking boolit to me.

I don't use it any more, because I bought a Ruger Super redhawk in 44 mag. My 45 colt is a model 25-5 Lazer engraved "Model of 1989" Non fluted cylinder, 5", flat black. comes with a hogue grip. I love it, but dind't want to beat it to death with magnum type loads. Now I just use 9 grains of unique and a 250 kieth SWC.

It will shoot 4" to 6" @ 100 yards with my cast boolits. Good Gun.

[44man]

The only boolits I don't water drop are the 20 to 1 for my BPCR. I water drop all the rest because it is so much easier then trying to keep them apart on a towel. You must seat checks and size within 1/2 hour after casting to keep the hardness although I see no difference in the way they shoot.

[Willbird]

If you IM me with your email I will send you a pic that illustrates the differance in hardness between air cooled alloy and water dropped alloy.

Bill

[JohnH]

BA, We are buds!

Jeff, The bullets DJ sent me shoot very well. These are WW + 1% tin if I remember his alloy right, and I'd be surprised if he hasn't water dropped them.

I've not yet done any shooting of different alloys into wet news print or water jugs, been playing with lubes of late. But for a hunting bullet I don't believe you will want anything harder than about 10-12 BHN. A hunting bullet needs to be hard enough to withstand a bone strike, but mallable enough to not come to peices because of it. I have read that a water dropped WW bullet still has it's mallability, I want to run some tests for myself. Hardening bullets through alloying generally makes 'em to hard. at about 15 BHN, a bullet will shear but not expand, linotype @ 21 BHN has a tendancy to beak up in peices, but this is probably be the result of the high anitmony content, not the hardness itself.

The prevailing idea with cast is to use a large caliber (.400 and above) with large meplats that re 70-80% of the bullet diameter and simply punch holes in the animal that won't seal up, bleeding it to death. Then you have the guys using 30-30's pushing WW and a bit of tin to 1700-2000 fps and killing deer just fine with it. then there are still others making 2 alloy bullets, casting a nose from pure lead, following that pour with with a harder alloy creating a kind of cast premium bullet that will expand still leave a hard shank for deep penetration. DJ made some of this style for Vance this year, (30-30) and Vances dad killed his first deer with it. I'm considering this style pretty strongly

If I might suggest, try using WW and adding not more than 2% tin. the alloy I am going to use this aer is 20:1 (lead ,tin) It would be another that would probably work well for you too. I've driven this to 1800 in my 38-55 with no trouble, it will be interesting to see how it performs in the 357.

For what it may be worth I have used a 15 BHN ally (50/50 WW/Lino) on two deer and pure lead on another.

[Cayoot]

Hi Jeff,

For what its worth, you may want to "draw down" your boolits (Check out Veral Smith's book - "Jacketed Performance From Cast Bullets" at the LBT site).

I water quenched some 38's that were made with 4 parts WW to 1 part Lynotype.

In the same casting session, I air cooled some of the same boolits.

I gave them 30 days to "harden-up" which ended last week, then measured their hardness.

The air cooled measured (on my LBT hardness tester) 20 bnh, while my water quenched measured 32 bnh.

So the water quenching does make a difference. Next, I want to compare some water quenched vs air cooled straight WW.

We will see how that goes.

But I would definatly recommend Veral Smith's book, it is a short, easy read, but filled with massive amounts of info!

Just a thought from Da U.P.!

[Char-Gar]

I guess I am the odd man out..but I don't believe there is any NEED for water droped bullets in handguns. Straight air cooled wheel weight bullets with a gas check will take any velocity up to 2K fps and maybe beyond.

Those rock hard water dropped bullets MIGHT cause more problems then they are worth. In addition to being the dickens to size, unless they are truly a proper fit for the cyinder throats and barrel, they can cause leading. If they are of the proper size, they will work just fine, but are truly unnecessary.

As previously started, it is difficult to get consistant hardness by water droping a cast bullet. If you want hard bullets, tempering in an oven with a water quench is a better way that will produce more uniform hardness.

for plain base cast bullets in sixgun, a medium alloy like Lyman No. 2 is as hard as you will ever need.

[Maven]

I'm with Chargar on this one since BHN of >25 or so in a handgun may indeed be too much of a good thing. (CB's won't obturate or "slug up" if they're too hard.) Besides, if you size them, you get an immediate and pervasive (not just the surface) softening according to metallurgist Dennis Marshall, Jr. (another reason to read the Lyman CB Handbk.). Having said this, I must add that we're going about this wrong end to. The question du jour is do you really need such hard CB's? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Willbird]

Well Dick Lee refers in his book about the yield point of the alloy being a limiting factor to how fast you can accurately push cast boolits, I do not have a brinell tester but I doubt if my water dropped WW boolits are 25 brinell.

Mr. Veral Smith also advocates water dropping bullets from the mold.

I know revolver boolits especially in magnum calibers get pretty rough treatment before they finally leave the bbl, all the way from seating damage to being blasted by the muzzle blast as they exit the muzzle, and lots in between.

I have seen jacketed boolits(remington 180 grain) fired in 357 maximum that were 20% shorter after firing and the exposed lead swaged out so much that it had rubbed on the bore...this kind of deformation cannot possibly happen exactly the same way every time.

I would prefer my boolits to fit the throat, be bigger than the bore slightly , and seal the bore without having to obturate.


Bill

[BruceB]

Count me in with those who say that water-quenching for conventional handgun loads is not necessary.

When I can run an un-hardened straight-WW boolit at 1500-plus in a .44 Maggie without a sign of leading, I'm a happy shooter. This would be doubly so if I were using them on game animals, because a super-hard bullet is a dead certain non-expander in most circumstances, and also MIGHT be on the brittle side. I've had linotype bullets come apart, and quickly started softening the bullets a tad with pure lead (I had a LOT of lino available in those ancient days).

It's a win-win, to me.....a softer bullet is both more likely to expand, and less likely to shatter. In addition, it's a simpler casting routine when the water quench isn't needed.

On the issue of consistency in dropping boolits from the mould for quenching, when I'm doing my speed-casting routine the speed almost ensures consistency, because the casting rate is boringly unchanged.....and fast! Bullets drop from the mould every ten or twelve seconds, depending on the given mould. I'd wager that there's rarely more than a second or so of variation from cast-to-drop over a long run. That's close enough for my purposes.

If there is a mould-full which takes longer to drop for some reason, those bullets go to the sprue can and NOT into the quench bucket. I'm quite rigorous in this matter. This also maintains consistency, I think. I don't have a hardness tester, and really don't feel the need of one at this late date.

[StarMetal]

Willbird

If you used that 180 gr jacketed remington bullet as an example of a HARD jacketed bullet even gets deformed by the pressures of shooting it, it's a bad example because in all reality that core is very very soft alloy, possibly pretty close to pure lead and that jacket on it is nothing to speak of. Basically it's like water in a balloon, very easy to disform or move. I believe the only difference jacketed handgun bullets have over cast lead bullets is that they have more friction going down the bore.

If you're using the bullet as an example of how violent the trip down and out a revolver barrel is then I apologize.

Joe

[StarMetal]

In certain semi auto pistols it is required that the bullet be hard enough to survive the trip from the magazine up the feed ramp and into the barrel. A too soft bullet will have it's nose stick on the feed ramp and tie up the gun. So there are some instances where water quenched bullets can be used in handguns.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Willbird...The shooting and reloading world is chock full of myths and opinions which are passed off as fact. Many of these have been perpturated for generations and passed on by some of the noted gun writers. After 45 years at the reloading press and melting pot, I have discovered that just about anything you read, is suspect.

The only thing you know for certain is what you have worked out through your own experience. There just is no substitute. Many of the guys on this board are working from deep experience and not theory read in a book.

Go back and shoot about a thousand cast bullets each of varying hardness through your pistol. Try air cooled WW, Lyman No. 2, Linotype and your water droped bullets. Put them on paper and then come to your own conclusions. You might be suprised what you discover in the process.

As far as the hardness of water droped wheel weight goes, Linotype of a known hardness of 22 Bhn. pegs the scale on my hardness tested. Water droped ww is harder, but I have no way of knowing how much, but a Bhn of 25 does not sound unreasonable.

[Char-Gar]

Cayoot..I guess I am in kinda picky mood tonight, but I noticed your post on the hardness of your alloys and those numbers don't work for me.

Wheel weight runs 9-10 Bhn and Linotype runs 22 Bhn. A 4 (ww) to 1 (lino) mix could not yield an alloy of 20 Bhn. even after age hardening.

This tells me:

1) You have some new kind of wheel metal, not heretofore known
2) You have monotype or some other type metal and not Linotype
3) You need to get you money back from LBT on that tester.

I am truly not trying to be a horse's A&&, just trying to understand what is going on here.

[Willbird]

Star, yes I was using the jacketed bullet as an example of how violant the passage of the bullet from ctg. case to muzzle was in a 10" bbled contender. I also do not consider the section of the ogive supported by the jacket to be especially weak either, and that too was shortened and expanded quite a bit.

and as to treating everything I read as suspect, that would include things I read HERE

I was just re-reading a bit of suspect Veral Smith, and had my memory refreshed that hardness alone is not the only benefit of water dropping...it also has other benefits such as straighter bullets. Well that was in a book, gotta strike that knowledge...I didnt load 1000 rounds to prove or disprove Veral.

maybe we need a section where book larnin isnt allowed....or is that what we already have here ??

bullets needing to obturate to seal the bore IS a myth or opinion passed off as fact, if a .432 bullet leaves the throat of my Redhawk (which it fits) and is swaged down by the forcing cone to fit the .429 bore why on earth would it need to obturate to seal ?? being that it swells the barrel during it's passage like a snake swallowing an egg and it is therefore larger than the .429 bore somewhat...why would it need to obturate ??(this is true and measured and quantified in "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold Vaughn in a heavy bbled rifle with 270 bore and jacketed bullets...so one could probably be safe saying it happens in the redhawk too)...crap THAT is from a book too.

I use the constant PI too to calculate things, I have not measure the dia and circumferance of thousands of differant sized circles to prove it is true, nor did I develop my own version of it on my own. also other trig functions, once again from a book...............I heat treat, draw and temper steel with temps and colors from a book too...and machine all kinds of metals with speeds/feeds from machineries handbook

I must apologise for my ignorance about the hardness of water dropped, the BOOK says 20-25 brinell from water dropping...but then that is suspect, but it is gonna be tough to build my own brinell tester without using PI, or any books.

I HAVE fired several thousand bullets in a ransom rest. These bullets were cast from made from WW (air cooled), LINO, and pure lead from a pistol that will shoot 1.5" at 50 yards, now this was 45 acp, and 4.0 of bullseye, the harder bullets shot better....the softer bullets did not shoot as good...and recovered fired soft bullets exibited a much wider rifling groove than the more accurate harder bullets. I didnt know about water dropping back then, I had not read that book yet...... the end results were single cavity lino bullets shot 1.5" or less for 5 shots, WW air cooled shot 2.5", pure lead 3"


really it sounds like you just HATE water dropping charger....and I kind of like it.......as do lots of other guys here.

Bill

[BruceB]

Willbird, pard;

There's enough individual and collective experience on this Board to amply research (or to have ALREADY researched) practically any factor affecting the making and use of cast bullets.

We have learned, as a group and individuals, that many of the "BOOKS" you seem to regard so highly are in fact suspect in any number of specific fields affecting cast bullets. Yes, we here can read, and have read, and have experimented and will experiment. Yes, we find many Holy Truths in the books we all read, and the websites we study. We also find large amounts of unmitigated equine by-products, which we then disseminate amongst ourselves so that the casters here, and those who drop in, are not misled by wrong information.

It comes down to the ability to READ and ANALYZE and TEST and then DISCRIMINATE between what is valuable and what is dross. Also, what works for one or several of us will not necessarily work for all, due to a wide variety in the conditions and climates in which we study our hobby.

This specifically includes Veral Smith, who has certainly labored well in the casters' vineyard and created some interesting developments. I personally have some differences with parts of Veral's writings, but so what? He's not the High Poobah of Casting, and neither am I. LIKE CHARGAR, (not "Charger" BTW) I've been at this hobby for decades and have learned a fair bit about it...not everything, by any means, I must hasten to add. That's what keeps me interested.

Anyway, a legitimate difference of opinion is NOT cause for hard feelings or nasty posts. "BOOKS" will give a good basic groundwork for casters to build on, but they're not the last word on ANY subject, let alone one as arcane as bullet casting. Such books can also make us think, which is a decidedly valuable phenomenon. Many fine ideas have been born due to something in a book striking a note in someone's mind, which when followed up can break new ground.

We are not an ill-educated bunch of Luddites who think casting developments ended with Barlow or Keith. However, we DO honor and respect their contributions, as we do Veral's, and on occasion we even find that hints from a hundred years ago (or more) still have their uses today.