525 gr. WFN hard cast load for 7.5" BFR .45-70

[Jeremy4570]

After lurking this forum for a while, I've finally joined and am ready with my first post.
I happily own both a 7.5" bbl. BFR .45-70 and a Marlin SBL (18.5" bbl.) in the same caliber. My goal here is to figure out a couple of charge loads for a 525 gr. WFN hard cast boolit that is tailored to the BFR's 7.5" bbl. The powder needs to be appropriate for this gun's short barrel (short, that is, by .45-70 standards). My research points to IMR SR4759 as one of the best available choices, but I'm very open to suggestions. I'm looking for precision (groups of around 1" @ 50 yds. seem to be well within this gun's potential) in the contest of two specific velocities, a subsonic one of around 1,000 fps, and a more serious one of 1,200 fps. I've read many accounts of BFR .45-70 shooters complaining about unburned powder and lack of precision ... There are so many variables that need to be taken into consideration, such as working with the gun's 1 to 14" twist rate, what type of primer (best results seem to have been achieved with LP ones, though many abhor using them in the .45-70), resulting pressures and boolits appropriate BHNs, etc. and there is very little useful official data available specifically for the BFR ... I'm sure this is one of the very best forums on the planet for gaining the information that will get me started in the right direction.
Please contribute your experiences and advice relative to this gun/boolit combo - the more detailed, the better.

Looking forward to your input!

--
Jeremy

[44man]

I have never gone that high with boolit weight in the BFR. I might have tried some 500's long ago but most of my shooting is with 300 to 420 gr boolits.
4759 is the best but be aware too light of a charge will not ignite. I use Dacron over the powder. The 420 gr uses 28.5 gr. I used 26 gr with a 448 gr boolit.
If you find ignition problems, increase the charge a little. You will feel and hear changes.
I use a Fed 155 in the BFR, I tested LR primers and groups opened. Too light of a powder charge might benefit from a rifle primer.
The BFR is the most accurate revolver I ever shot and I have had 3/8" groups at 50 yards and under 1" at 100 many times. I clanged steel at 500 meters and had 4 shots in 2-1/2" at 500 yards once---ONCE!
Sorry I can't help with that heavy of a boolit. You shorter barrel is harder to get powder to burn in too.
The 45-70 has a 22 to 23# mainspring for LP primers. The .450 Marlin has a 28# spring for LR primers. I changed mine to a 26# Wolff variable.
Let me know how the heavy boolit does.

[jaycocreek]

I use the 525 grain Beartooth with my BFR in 45-70.I use the exact same load as I use in my Guide Gun pressure checked at less than 35,000 PSI.It clocks 1515 fps in my Guide Gun and 1300 fps in my 7.5" BFR with excellent accuracy and low recoil compared too.

I use RX-7 for these loads and just had some pressure checked with RX-10X which actually gives a slightly lower pressure but a flash bang like H-335.

I am not at home but away in my RV and cannot get to my pictures to show you the accuracy this load has out of the BFR..I hate to give a powder charge, but in Starline brass with CCI #34 primers(Mag) I would start at 33 grains and work up with RX-7.

Maybe I can get my computer fixed tomorrow and give a better answer as my N key isn't working.

Jayco

[Jeremy4570]

Thank you, 44man, for your information and advice. Actually, I had read several of your older posts relative to reloading for the BFR .45-70 with lighter boolits. It's very valuable information and I'm truly impressed with your good work.

Jayco, I very much appreciate your input and it's great news you were able to attain excellent accuracy with the 525 gr. boolit!! "RX-7" ... Do you mean Reloader 7?
There is no need for rushing, but once you have access to that information, the data pertaining to the accuracy of your load would be much helpful. Also, did the powder burn completely in the short barrel? Given that the SR4759 suggested by 44man is a faster burning powder than Reloader 7 (likely, in theory, to perform better in the 7.5" bbl), I was wondering whether you had experimented with it when developing this load?
If you have this info, what's the velocity associated with the 33 gr. initial charge you are suggesting, and how deeply did you sit the boolits, how did you go about crimping? Have you tried getting the 525 gr. hard cast down to around 1,000 fps? Looking forward to your input...

[jaycocreek]

I'm not a pistolera like some others here that have to have everything right to shoot 100 yard groups.I bought my BFR-45-70 to have a pistol/rifle combo,but like the rest,I want it right..The internet is a strange place sometimes and a guy has to be careful to any advice he chooses to follow....

When I got my first 45-70,I went strait to Randy Garrett who is now a very good friend of mine.I have been to his house/visited with him and his lovely wife and talked alot of hunting etc.I also have a great other friend who is a notoriety to everyone in the gun buisness but his name will remain anominous.

When I first got my BFR in 45-70,the very first person I contacted was Lee Marten to rid myself of the internet BS that happens.His first remark was sizing for the BFR and not to exceed .460(if you have to have that much) in a BFR..My first loads through the BFR were sized at .460 and I felt the jamming.....

If you ask Marshal Stanton of Beartooth Bullets the size for BFR Cast in 45-70,he will tell you the majority orders .458 for the BFR..I chose .459 which works just dandy in my Marlin Guide Gun and the BFR...

I wanted a rifle/pistol combo and have it in the BFR-45-70 and my Guide Gun which both shoot this bullet very accurately and I can use my loads in either one, not having to separate anything.the way it should be......

Good luck on your loads..

Jayco

[felix]

Who is Randy Garrett, his wife, Lee Marten, and your associated notoriety? Your credibility demands the information displayed on our BS board. ... felix

[jaycocreek]

Who is Randy Garrett, his wife, Lee Marten, and your associated notoriety? Your credibility demands the information displayed on our BS board. ... felix

If you have to ask on a 45-70 thread who Randy Garrett is,weez need help and if you have to ask on a pistol related thread,who is Lee Marten,,Well....

You jumped me Bubba..Let it be and add something useful about the BFR/525 grain cast load,rather than just trying to trash me.

Jayco

[jaycocreek]

Jeremy

Since it appears no one here has used that bullet in the 45-70 BFR,you might try this forum which I know for sure,I was not the only one to use it in the BFR...A couple good 'ole boys have....

www.levergunlovers.com

Jayco

[Frank]

jaycocreek said

The internet is a strange place sometimes and a guy has to be careful to any advice he chooses to follow....

Exactly. So how does the 525 bullet shoot?

[jaycocreek]

It shoots very well,Frank..Probably better than I do.

I was asked via a PM to my e-mail to respond to this post with my real world experience with this bullet in a 7.5" BFR..I did just that and nothing more.I do not give out powder charges on the internet even though I have had them pressure checked, but I sometimes give a safe starting charge for someone to work up themselves like this bullet in Starline brass which Marshal Stanton uses..He uses a Winchester LRP(The hottest of the LRP's) and I choose to use a CCI#34(Mag) primer.

On the other forum I mentioned earlier,Grizz/Blaine and I think,Bestlever all tried this bullet in both the 7.5" BFR and the 10" version with nothing but good to say about it.....I believe they used H-322....

It's a great bullet and works well in the BFR with less velocity loss(from 18.5" to 7.5") than Garrett's 420 +P Hammerhead and my hand loaded 420 cast,for some reason.

Jayco

[Frank]

Basic stuff. Half inch at 50 yds? Two inch? What does it mean, 'very well'?

[Jeremy4570]

Jayco

Thank you so much for all your information and advice! It is more than I was hoping for and I very much appreciate it. I am glad you responded to my PM and contributed your real world experience to this thread. This really makes a big difference for me, as information on heavy boolits such as the 525 gr. in the BFR .45-70 is so scarce on the web. It really surprises me that this topic does not draw in many more shooters. To me, using a very heavy boolit when you are dealing with a short bbl. (7.5") BFR is one of the best ways to make use of the full potential of the gun at hand (and the BFR is a wonderful one!), in order to circumvent the ballistic limitations posed by the short bbl. in combination with the .45-70 case.
So far, only another guy (from a different board) has also proven helpful, and his preference is with H322 (which appears to match that of the guys from the forum you suggested). So, I'll get started working with Reloader 7, H322, and also want to try SR4759 and see which gives me the best results.
THANK YOU, again. J

[44man]

That was my problem when I bought mine, no info. I tested tons of powders using all of my books including Pet Loads. Many powders did not burn all the way and left powder in the brass and barrel. 4198 gave me pressure excursions with cast from 1600 to 1800 fps and a stuck case now and then. It worked OK with jacketed. 3031 left the most powder with the lowest velocity but it made nice groups. Believe it or not, Varget burned better.
4759 with a 317 and 330 gr boolit gives me 1632 fps from a 10" barrel. Cases are clean and fall out, none of the loads I listed are max. In fact the gun is cleaner then any I ever shot and brass does not even need tumbled.
When I work loads I look for the tightest groups and if 1/2 gr more powder opens them, I just back down so I can't tell you what would be the max load because they are not needed. My boolits only drop 16" at 200 yards with a 75 yard setting. Recoil is very pleasant. Just too much fun to shoot!
The heavier boolit should work fine with a slower powder so what you find can benefit the rest of us too.
The BFR has a very fast twist that has so much benefit it is hard to explain, it will shoot about any boolit. I have never seen a 45-70 rifle equal the accuracy potential. The gun shoots like a laser.
These are the boolits I shoot and some of the 50 yard groups.

[use enough gun]

I loaded up some 535 grain bullets for my 1895 a couple years ago. The power charge was 45 grains of IMR3031. The bullets were sized at .457 and then wraped in teflon tape and sized to .459. I tryed some of these rounds in my 10.5" BFR, they shot very well with good accuracy and no power residue. Dave

[Frank]

use enough gun said

I loaded up some 535 grain bullets for my 1895 a couple years ago. The power charge was 45 grains of IMR3031. The bullets were sized at .457 and then wraped in teflon tape and sized to .459. I tryed some of these rounds in my 10.5" BFR, they shot very well with good accuracy and no power residue. Dave

What kind of groups? We like to share details about what we shoot here. A picture is a lot more enjoyable to look at. I don't buy the excuse that there is any safety reason for not publishing a load and one doesn't want to be liable. All you have to say is, It works in my gun. Providing details enhances the board. IMO, from what I read here I am definitely not sold on a 525 bullet. I've read and tried loads where people said 'shoots great', or 'shoots very well' too many times to know all advice that doesn't give details or is massaged with words will not shoot, period!

[use enough gun]

Fair enough Frank; No, I don't have any pictures of groups. I put about 20 round through my BFR basically just burning up some leftover ammo. I fired 2, 5 shot groups offhand at 25-30 yards outdoors. I wasn't expecting much in the way of accuracy but both groups could be covered with my closed fist. For me anyway, that ain't to bad and is more than exceptable for most of the hunting I do. Those 2 groups were also fired a day apart from each other. The day after I shot the first group I was wondering it it had been just a fluke or a little lucky on my part. It printed the same the second time.
The load was fine in my rifle and in my BFR, it killed a couple deer in my rifle. In Paul Matthews '40 Years with the 45/70' , Paul quoted Tom Florich who said that you couldn't get enough IMR 3031 in a case and still seat a bullet to a proper depth to be dangerous. The spent cases were no harder to eject nor were the primers any flatter than any of the other loads I've been shooting in my BFR. Most of which are the the loads recomended by 44 Man.
( 350grn ranchdog, 30 grains of 4759)
The loads were accurate enough for me to pick off a couple jackrabbits from a rest. Dave

[Frank]

use enough says

Most of which are the the loads recomended by 44 Man.
( 350grn ranchdog, 30 grains of 4759)

52 grns H322 with the 350 Ranchdog is also a winner. I got this load off this board and it will give me 1/2" groups at 50 yds if I do my part off the bench. I was also shooting it side by side with the 30 grn 4759 load at 100 yds. The first round the H322 beat it, 2" vs 3". The fliers were me. Second round they were both tied at 2", wind was blowing. But the vertical for the H322 load was only 1", but I got some horozontal, like 3". Then all I had left was 8 rounds of the 30 grn SR loads. The first three started doing the same, fliers, but more vertical. So I adjusted my technique. The last five formed an almost perfect line the size of an index finger, .3" vertical. So it's all coming together. I need to try them both side by side again at 100 yds.

[use enough gun]

I've been shooting 45/70 since 1976 and I can't begin to count how many round I've shot downrange. In all those years in all honesty I've never tryed H322, I've heard nothing but good about it but just have never tryed it. Same with Varget, I keep telling myself I've got to pick some up but somehow never do. I've got an old steel 8lb. powder can full of spent primers plus God knows how many that went in the garbage and on the floor. Dave

[Frank]

Here are the last shots I described. So will the 525 do this? If we see nothing, it can't.
BFR 45/70; 100 yds; Ranchdog 350*30 Grns SR4759*Starline*Fed155*Felix lube

[Frank]

Here's the H322 last time out, 50 yds. I could tell right away it was good. One of the shots went off on me. I test only 5 with a load . I hate to throw away good boolits.