New problem with wheel weights

[mastercast.com]

The folks that make wheel weights are now alloying them with calcium to harden them instead of antimony. Lead with calcium content will not make a bullet that is worth a rip. The lube grooves will look like they are frosted,(undersized at that point) the sharp edges that need to be there will not be in evidence, and you will cast a most nasty bullet. Combine that with the risk of zinc wheel weights in the mix....it ain't worth it.

Darned shame!!!!!!!

Tire shops in my area call me all the time wanting to sell wheel weights...like they are all lead in content......I quit buying them a long time ago when Zinc was introduced to the mix. Add calcium to the mix...no way.

[fredj338]

How do you know it's calcium & just not zinc? We pretty much are down tonothinbg lead here, so it's berm mining form now on around here.

[mastercast.com]

One of the guys that works in a local crime lab here is a bullet caster. He was having a problem getting decent bullets out of a batch of wheel weights. He took some of that "wheel weight alloy" to the lab and ran it through a gas chromatograph.(I think I spelled that correctly) He found high calcium content in the lead. Wondering why, he called a few wheel weight manufacturers and was told that they now use calcium to harden the lead instead of antimony because it is MUCH cheaper.

I frankly had NO IDEA that you could alloy calcium with lead until now.

[fredj338]

One of the guys that works in a local crime lab here is a bullet caster. He was having a problem getting decent bullets out of a batch of wheel weights. He took some of that "wheel weight alloy" to the lab and ran it through a gas chromatograph.(I think I spelled that correctly) He found high calcium content in the lead. Wondering why, he called a few wheel weight manufacturers and was told that they now use calcium to harden the lead instead of antimony because it is MUCH cheaper.

I frankly had NO IDEA that you could alloy calcium with lead until now.

Me neither, damn, another good source turned bad.

[sagacious]

Calcium is actually a metal. In the same way that Sb dramatically increases the insoluble intermetallic content (read: decreases pourability) in Zn-contaminated lead, Sb also increases the problematic intermetallics in Pb/Ca alloys. This can catch a pourer by surprise if they're not aware of it. But there are some remedies, and in Pb/Ca alloys, hydrocarbon fluxing can help remove those intermetallics. Remember: flux early, flux often. Good luck.

[mold maker]

Are there any test for calcium like acid for zinc? What WW makers are using Ca in the mix?
This is already serious and getting worse.
I'm sure grateful for the inventory I already have.

[montana_charlie]

But there are some remedies, and in Pb/Ca alloys, hydrocarbon fluxing can help remove those intermetallics. Remember: flux early, flux often. Good luck.

I need an explanation of that advice.

When we 'flux' during smelting of raw scrap, it is (for us) a 'cleaning' process designed to remove contaminates from the surface of the molten metals...AND it is a 'mixing' process where we hope to blend all of the various metals in the scrap into an homogenous mass.

When actually casting (with clean metal) our 'fluxing' is an attempt to control oxidation...either by preventing it or (preferably) by reducing it back into the melt.

Is there some point (condition/temperature) where the calcium is free to come to the surface, making it removable during the smelting stage...or will it oxidize early so it can be skimmed from the pot during casting?

CM

[geargnasher]

MC, I think you would have to "un-react" the Ca/Sb bond to get rid of the calcium. The only way I know of is to keep adding antimony and skimming the resulting slush of Ca/Sb off of it until no more will form, then handle the dross like it was nuclear waste. Ca/Sb dross is supposed to react with moisture in the air to create deadly stibine gas, the stuff they use to fumigate rodents. Apparently, even a small amount of dross can make enough poisonous gas to easily kill you in a garage-sized room. One of the reasons not to use modern battery plates, they contain a high concentration of calcium to handle the heat and vibration.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

He took some of that "wheel weight alloy" to the lab and ran it through a gas chromatograph.

He ran a metal through a G.L.C.???? That makes no sense to me what so ever. I've run a gas chromatograph before. The test specimen needs to be something that can evaporate or else the whole system doesn't work. I think that you have some bad information there somewhere.

[sagacious]

I need an explanation of that advice.

When we 'flux' during smelting of raw scrap, it is (for us) a 'cleaning' process designed to remove contaminates from the surface of the molten metals...AND it is a 'mixing' process where we hope to blend all of the various metals in the scrap into an homogenous mass.

When actually casting (with clean metal) our 'fluxing' is an attempt to control oxidation...either by preventing it or (preferably) by reducing it back into the melt.

Is there some point (condition/temperature) where the calcium is free to come to the surface, making it removable during the smelting stage...or will it oxidize early so it can be skimmed from the pot during casting?

CM

MC,
Your explanation above is pretty good. Note also that proper fluxing will remove entrained oxides and insoluble intermetallics-- the wetted lead oxides and particulates one often sees floating under the surface of the melt, especially in Pb/Sb alloys. The SbCa intermetallic looks exactly like that grainy stuff floating just under the surface of the melt.

Since the SbCa intermetallic is less dense than ww lead, after it forms (during smelting/refining, alloying, etc) it floats just under the surface. Fluxing can then remove it at that point in the same way that fluxing removes entrained lead oxides, as the reduction in surface tension during fluxing allows the entained contaminants to be wetted by the flux, and separate from the melt. Then it can be skimmed off as a clumpy or crumbly gray sludge.

Hope this answers your question. If not, just let me know.

[sagacious]

MC, I think you would have to "un-react" the Ca/Sb bond to get rid of the calcium. The only way I know of is to keep adding antimony and skimming the resulting slush of Ca/Sb off of it until no more will form, then handle the dross like it was nuclear waste.

Gear

The actual Ca content should be pretty low. I suspect that lead alloys with 1% or more Sb probably have more than enough Sb to combine all the Ca into intermetallics. Generous hydrocarbon fluxing seems like the best remedy. When dealing with troublesome intermetallics, fluxing at low temp (close to the melt temp) and lighting the flux smoke will really help remove the stuff ya want gone.

Regards.

[home in oz]

This is interesting-I did not know about the calcium in wheel weights

[mastercast.com]

He ran a metal through a G.L.C.???? That makes no sense to me what so ever. I've run a gas chromatograph before. The test specimen needs to be something that can evaporate or else the whole system doesn't work. I think that you have some bad information there somewhere.

Sir,


He did not run it through a GLC....I have no idea what that is or was.

He ran it through a gas chromatograph....It vaporizes the sample and gives you a graph to determine the content of anything that is put in it. The G.L.C. is apparently old technoligy. No evaporation required...it vaporizes the sample....fumes I suppose create the graph.

The important thing is that calcium in being introduced to wheel weights.

[lwknight]

I wonder just how much lead could be reclaimed from the dross that casters and smelters toss into the nuclear waste pile?

[geargnasher]

I wonder just how much lead could be reclaimed from the dross that casters and smelters toss into the nuclear waste pile?

I wondered that myself, once, and re-processed an entire five-gallon steel bucket full of WW clips, bullet jackets, and smelting dross as well as a soup can full of the crud I skim off my pot (mostly wood ash), I torched the whole mess in my decommissioned 20lb propane tank smelter with a quart of dirty diesel fuel, tapped and stirred and shook it, carefully tapping lead droplets off of everything that came out of the pot.

All that work and fuel yielded five ounces of mystery metal.

Never again.

Gear

[Pertsev]

This site can be a wealth of info.Have been using WW for years. Did notice lately that crumbly stuff in the dross.Thought it was Zn.
Yes,flux and flux often ! Been using bits O bullet lube for initial flux,then good stir w/ a pine stick. Going to redouble my flix efforts.

[JIMinPHX]

Sir,


He did not run it through a GLC....I have no idea what that is or was.

He ran it through a gas chromatograph....It vaporizes the sample and gives you a graph to determine the content of anything that is put in it. The G.L.C. is apparently old technoligy. No evaporation required...it vaporizes the sample....fumes I suppose create the graph.

The important thing is that calcium in being introduced to wheel weights.

G.L.C. = gas chromatograph
It's the same thing.

I have used every type of gas chromatograph elution tube that I know to exist, from wax to titanium. I am not aware of any that are able to vaporize a metal like calcium or lead. Please check your facts.

[mastercast.com]

Bob,

In an earlier post you stated that the above will not work with anything that will not evaporate.

Your last post states that you have used every type of gas chromatograph elution tube that your know to exist, from wax to Titanium.

INTERNET EXPERT-

Please explain to me in great, GREAT detail how you got wax and/or Titanium to evaporate in order for you to test with G.L.C..

I have never seen cast iron evaporate.........Titanium?


EGAD!


Perhaps you might want to check your facts. I put a .45 pistol down on the table next to me today......oddly, it did not evaporate. I was ready for that, but for some reason it did not happen.

[mongo]

Hi all, I am new to casting. I have been learning a bunch here. I cast a bunch of .358 158gr semi wadcutters with melted down wheel weights. I used the white powder flus that midway sells and had good results. Now I am reading that wheel weights contain calcium that when mixed in the dross and gets wet it developes poison gas? I guess my question is ..Is it safe to use wheel weights? I have been reloading for more than 30 years but just started casting a couple of weeks ago. Still trying to learn. Thanks, Tom

[jr81452]

Mr. Mastercast.com,

You may want to slow down before you put your foot irrevocably into your mouth. I don't know what type of chromatography instrument your friend used to determine the presence of calcium in his Pb sample, but it was not likely a gas chromatograph. In order to use gas chromatography (more formally known as a gas-liquid-chromatograph or G.L.C.), the sample must vaporize below 300 °C, as that is generally the limit of the temperature range. Considering that neither Ca nor Pb will even melt at that temp, you can see the problem.

An elution tube, also known as a column, is a piece of glass or metal tubing (other substances such as wax are used for low temp samples) into which the sample you wish to analyze is placed.

The column, as Wikipedia so eloquently states ("The gaseous compounds being analyzed interact with the walls of the column, which is coated with different stationary phases. This causes each compound to elute at a different time, known as the retention time of the compound. The comparison of retention times is what gives GC its analytical usefulness.") does not vaporize.

So, when you are through having a tantrum over being questioned by someone on an internet forum, perhaps you could ask your friend to enlighten you as to what type of chromatograph he actually used to perform his analysis. It would also be nice if you could get him to state exactly what percentage of calcium was found, how he can be certain that his sample was not contaminated, and exactly which WW manufacturers he called for information. Until you can provide the answers to these questions, you are simply paroting hear-say and inciting unfounded worry in casters who use WW as a primary alloy source (as evidenced by the post above mine). The last thing the shooting community needs is more second hand boogy-man stories.