New problem with wheel weights

[zxcvbob]

But it is plausable that WW's would be contaminated with Ca (from battery plates) and Zn (from zinc weights) just because the companies that make them don't care how the metal casts -- they use die casting machines. All they should care about is that the weight is consistent within their tolerances, the lead is hard enough that the weights don't fall off, and they don't ruin alloy wheels.

But I've never had any trouble with them, except for that one little batch of stick-on wieghts that I melted down before I realized that some of them were zinc

[JIMinPHX]

Bob,

In an earlier post you stated that the above will not work with anything that will not evaporate.

Your last post states that you have used every type of gas chromatograph elution tube that your know to exist, from wax to Titanium.

INTERNET EXPERT-

Please explain to me in great, GREAT detail how you got wax and/or Titanium to evaporate in order for you to test with G.L.C..

I have never seen cast iron evaporate.........Titanium?


EGAD!


Perhaps you might want to check your facts. I put a .45 pistol down on the table next to me today......oddly, it did not evaporate. I was ready for that, but for some reason it did not happen.

Actually, it's Jim, not Bob.

The tubes were made out of everything from wax to titanium. The test specimens were not wax or titanium. The test specimens were volatile compounds like essential oils, extracts & distillates, some of which were quite corrosive, hence the use of corrosion resistant tubes like wax & titanium.

When you use a G.L.C. you select a type of tube that will give you the best resolution for the materials that you expect to be present in the test specimen. You then place the test specimen in the tube & start the machine running. The machine provides you with a strip chart graph that represents the different gasses that evolved out of the tube relative to time. In addition to the test specimen, you also run known solvents for strip comparison to give you a baseline against which to judge the test material. By comparing the two strips, you can tell what percentages of what compounds were present.

I have never know of lead or calcium to vaporize in a gas chromatograph. Again, I ask you to please check your facts.

Incidentally, some waxes can vaporize. You can ask anyone who has ever run a column still in a perto-chemical refinery if you don't believe me.

[geargnasher]

Mr. Mastercast.com,

So, when you are through having a tantrum over being questioned by someone on an internet forum, perhaps you could ask your friend to enlighten you as to what type of chromatograph he actually used to perform his analysis. It would also be nice if you could get him to state exactly what percentage of calcium was found, how he can be certain that his sample was not contaminated, and exactly which WW manufacturers he called for information. Until you can provide the answers to these questions, you are simply paroting hear-say and inciting unfounded worry in casters who use WW as a primary alloy source (as evidenced by the post above mine). The last thing the shooting community needs is more second hand boogy-man stories.

Thank you, thank you. I'd like more facts myself, and am getting really burned out on Chicken Little stories. Next thing you know we'll have another primer shortage and EPA panic.

Gear

[sagacious]

Zincophobia still has a stranglehold grip on countless newbies, and newbies to come. Now calciphobia will take hold. The increasing switch to zinc and steel ww's-- and thereby the depletion of lead ww's-- is much more of a concern than the exact lead alloy used for ww manufacture. Almost any lead alloy is workable, given sufficient knowledge and experience. There are simple solutions to almost any alloy problem. I never turn down a source of lead, and have never had to scrap a batch as 'useless'. Just my take on it.

[zxcvbob]

Zincked lead probably casts good enough to make swaged bullet cores, but it'll be hard lead so it will take a pretty strong press.

[GP100man]

I flux with wax , stir with a stik , another flux with marvalux & wax stirr some more , flux 1 more time with sulphur then wax & it`s ingot time .

Stay up wind !!!!

If it does`nt pour in a 358156 or a 429421 it`ll pour into a lee 358 158 rnfp mold !!!

When the boogie man goes home I`m the 1 he looks under the bed for !!!!!!HA

[zxcvbob]

Doesn't sulfur remove antimony?

[montana_charlie]

Mr. Mastercast.com,

You may want to slow down before you put your foot irrevocably into your mouth.

He went off the deep end in a similar manner during the Hardness Tester thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82506 and never admitted his error/ignorance...whichever.

I doubt that he will this time, either.

CM

[mastercast.com]

Mr. Heinlein,

First, let me tell you that I am no expert with regard to gas chromatographs.

If someone delivered one to my house and placed it on the front porch, I would have absolutely no idea what it was.

When you talk about evaporation with regard to metals, that strains credibility. Please explain how metals can evaporate, like in great detail. My .45 ACp 1911 is still om my deslk, and shows no sign of evaporation.

How is it possible that your version of G.L.C. for lack of a better term, only works to 300 degrees Celsius...that is about 572 degrees farenheit... will not melt lead.

I am not experiencing a tantrum as you suggest, I am reporting what a Gentleman in the local crime lab told me about his experience with contaminated lead. He does not contiminate his samples...he has no history there as you seem to want to infer.

This information was generated here to prevent others from having the same problem.

If you chose not to believe it, that is OK with me. If and when you get calcium contamination from wheel weights........well, you were warned.

[LeadThrower]

Not to defend or attack anyone, but simply to put some honest science into this thread:

Analysis of metal alloys was most likely performed on an ICP-MS. That's an Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectromteter, in which the analyte is vaporized and ionized in an argon plasma (6,000 celsius at its coolest point! Think surface of sun temperatures). Once ionized, the analyte is separated based upon its mass. Since the atoms are charged, they'll respond to an electric field, with different masses responding differently and thus being separated. Before anyone jumps at the idea that nothing can contain a 6,000 degree plasma, remember that a plasma is a charged gas and so it can be contained by electric fields. (google "ICP torch" to see more info than you care to read on that subject).

A little more science: calcium is a VERY active metal. It will oxidize by being dropped into water. It will react vigorously with vinegar. In fractional percent levels in alloy it will likely not be detectable by these methods. The real moral of the story here is that fluxing with oils, waxes, or sawdust will not likely reduce the calcium oxide back to calcium metal. Flux well and stir, as has been suggested. Fear no calcium until your boolits demonstrate it's there. If in doubt, send a sample and a BIG check to your neighborhood analytical lab, for ICP-MS is an expensive instrument to purchase ($150,000 for a used model) and operate (Argon ain't cheap, and these instruments run through roughly one cubic foot every minute).

Cheers, happy casting, and send all of your suspected calcium-contaminated lead to me, please!
LeadThrower

PS: sample introduction would be either laser ablation (in which a laser atomizes tiny quantities of a solid sample) which is VERY unlikely, since it adds a huge chunk of change to an already expensive piece of hardware, or, more likely, dissolution in concentrated nitric acid and injection of the resulting solution. And no, you cannot inject acidic solutions into a gas chromatograph and expect to achieve more than the destruction of your column.

[mastercast.com]

He went off the deep end in a similar manner during the Hardness Tester thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82506 and never admitted his error/ignorance...whichever.

I doubt that he will this time, either.

CM

Explain that one to me. Ignorance or error?

[JIMinPHX]

When you talk about evaporation with regard to metals, that strains credibility. Please explain how metals can evaporate, like in great detail. My .45 ACp 1911 is still om my deslk, and shows no sign of evaporation.

That was the whole point of me asking you to check your facts in the first place. Metals like lead, calcium & the steel in your 1911 don't readily evaporate. That is why they can't be assayed, or even detected in a gas cromatagraph.

GAS cromatograph - it measures gasses.
I've never known of calcium gas to exist.
It's probably as hard to find as 1911 gas.

[jr81452]

Don't waist your breath Jim. Your talking to a man who calls himself "mastercast" who thinks Pb melts at 572deg F (notice I said Pb, not Pb alloys), apparently thinks thinks evaporation can only take place at room temp (for the impaired, the actual definition: To convert or change into a vapor (notice it does not specify at what temp)), and is generally deficient of scientific knowledge.

mastercast,
Please Note:
The melting point of Pb is 621.43* F. If you want to see Pb vaporize, heat it above 3200*F.
The melting point of Ca is 1548*F. If you want to see Ca vaporize, heat it above 2800*F.
And if you want to see your 45 vaporize, heat it above 4000*F.
Nearly anything will temporarily convert to a gas and evaporate if you get the temp. high enough. But all of that is irrelevant (just like most of your "information" in this post) because a G.L.S. will only achieve 300*C as previously stated.


I can appreciate that you thought you were passing on useful information. But when you are suggesting something as damaging to the community as you are, you should be prepared to back up your statements with verifiable facts, not hearsay. We should be striving for truth in all we post, not playing word games and posting unverified information that scares new guys away from our hobby.

That is the extent of my interest in this subject until you can present some concrete facts.

[montana_charlie]

He went off the deep end in a similar manner during the Hardness Tester thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=82506 and never admitted his error/ignorance...whichever.

I doubt that he will this time, either.

CM

Explain that one to me. Ignorance or error?

Simply stated, you began that argument with the assertion that the proper way to test lead hardness was by 'penetration' of a falling indenter...the method used in Rockwell testing of hard metals.

It was pointed out that the Brinell test uses 'area', not 'depth', to determine hardness, and it is a sphere pressed into the metal, not a point falling into it...but you maintained your original premise.

Either you were wrong in the beginning, and unwilling to admit your error, or you started out ignorant of the truth...and remained so.

CM

[JIMinPHX]

And if you want to see your 45 vaporize, heat it above 4000*F.

Or leave it sitting on the front seat of a parked car somewhere near Compton...

[geargnasher]

mastercast.com, I usually refrain from being masteroftheobvious.com, however for you I make this exception: JiminPHX goes by Jim. Robert A. Heinlein authored the quote Jim uses in his sig line. I do not understand how that fact escapes you. Since that name doesn't seem to ring a bell, perhaps you should google it.

Gear

[Ole]

I just came in here to admit that I don't have any friends that work in crime labs.

[Ohio Rusty]

The last batch I melted had three WW's on top of the clips and junk that didn't melt. I quickly scooped them out and set them aside. The next day I tried to cut a sliver off the edge with a razor knife. A lead WW will easily peel off a thim lead sliver with a sharp edge of a knife. These didn't hardly scratch. Not sure if they are zinc or not. I also found a big truck WW the other day. It was bright and shiney like it was new. I couldn't hardly scratch it with a knife blade. What it is made from I can't say.
What I have been doing is each WW that I want to melt, I check it with a knife edge. If it peels off a sliver like lead should, it goes in the melt pile. I know it's kind of slow, but I really don't know any other way to discern what is lead and what isn't .... they all look the same. The iron/steel ones are easy to identify as the clip is riveted to the body of the WW.

Ohio Rusty ><>

[zxcvbob]

You get to where you recognize the marks on them; the last batch I had was full of "MICRO" and "AL-MC" weights (lead.) So I could just throw those in the pot and melt/skim them without checking each one. Then I took the pot off the heat and let it just barely harden, and I dumped in all the ones I didn't know about (with the obvious steel and zinc weight removed.) They were wet, that's why I had to let it harden first. Heated slowly and stirred when they started to melt. As soon as it got to the liquidus, before the temperature could get any higher, I skimmed out any weights that wouldn't melt. Found a few that looked just like lead, had no marks on them, but they wouldn't melt (I assume they were zinc.) It was a lot faster than scratching each one with an awl or biting it with fence pliers.

BTW, I don't understand why there's so much hostility in this thread.

[canyon-ghost]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the gear but, when it comes to the word "Plasma" I have an idea about that. The plasma arc cutter that I use at work (welding shop) works just like an oxy-acetylene torch except, that it uses an electric arc and compressed air. Hit the metal with enough concentrated voltage, move the molecules fast enough, and the result is heat, yellow to white hot heat.
Anyway, just a half composed theory there for your musing.