45 or 44

[white eagle]

I'm with you Whitworth
the 45 colt has some muscle for sure
just needed to flex it

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

Been looking at the Ruger 45 or 44 Super Blackhawk Hunter, not sure which way to go.I am reloading and will be starting to cast soon, want to get good accurate 100 yard shots will be putting a Ultra Dot on it.Any thoughts



Thank You
Jason

Hi Jason,

The BH and SBH are handguns if you're looking for accuracy at 100 yds you need a rifle. Both cartridges are quite capable of good accuracy at 100 yds but only a very skilled shooter can produce better than minute of torso accuracy with a handgun at 100 yds. Think about what you want to do with the gun before you lay out the cash for a handgun when what you really need is a rifle. Winchester makes a nice lever action in both cartridges, I think Henry makes a .45 Yellow Boy.

.44 vs .45 Generally speaking the .44 shoots a little flatter and a little further. The .45 thumps a lot harder in the effective range of handguns. Don't confuse velocity with power. Velocity gives trajectory and range. Power is a function of mass and diameter.

The .45 is a superior stopper to the .44 in a handgun out to about 75 yards. Beyond that the 44 starts to close the gap.

One last point. Call me a snob, old, or a purist but it's wrong on so many levels to top a handgun with optics, spend time at the range and learn to shoot.

I have a couple hunting loads for the .45 if you're interested. I've killed deer, hogs, black bear and a buffalo with my BH Convertable 7.5"bbl. Not one of them took a step.

Last year my son killed a Black Bear with his S&W Mod 25-5 and a 300 gr bullet at 900 fps. From a tree stand at about 35 yds it shattered the shoulder, penetrated the lung lengthwise at about 45DEG, severed and lodged in the spine. We estimated about 26 inches of penetration. He dropped like a dish rag and was for all practical purposes dead when he hit the ground.

[Lloyd Smale]

As to the 45 thumping deer alot harder i wouldnt bet the farm on it. Ive shot enough deer bear and pigs with both to KNOW that both kill about the same. Its more of a matter of load level your using then which cartridge your using. Load both with a comparable flat nose cast 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps and no animal walking will know the differnce in which you use and with cast bullets you can about lump the 454 in there too. I dont really notice animals having more reaction to hits until i step up to the 475.

[MasterGunnerySergeant]

As to the 45 thumping deer alot harder i wouldnt bet the farm on it. Ive shot enough deer bear and pigs with both to KNOW that both kill about the same. Its more of a matter of load level your using then which cartridge your using. Load both with a comparable flat nose cast 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps and no animal walking will know the differnce in which you use and with cast bullets you can about lump the 454 in there too. I dont really notice animals having more reaction to hits until i step up to the 475.

You had better bet the farm on it, if you intend to keep working the farm. The science of terminal ballistics does not support you. With all due respect; what you think you KNOW about incapacitation and lethality is highly subjective and probably influenced more by Madison Ave. marketing of the term magnum than actual data.

First things first. John Taylor’s “Knock Out” formula is a simple calculation of “thump”. It’s used and endorsed by most large bore handgun designers including John Linebaugh, Jack Fulmer and Evan Whildin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Caliber x Bullet Wt. x Velocity / 7000

Using your parameters from above:
.44 Mag .429 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 22.07 KO
.45 LC .452 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 23.25 HO

Strictly speaking the .44 can manage about 95% the Knock Out power of the .45 under similar conditions. As a bonus, the .45 delivers this power with less wear and tear owing to the larger capacity case and lower pressures.

I know 5% doesn’t sound like much but consider the difference between the .41 and .44; they differ in diameter a nominal .019. Similarly the .44 and .45 differ by a nominal .023. In terms of “thump” w/ 220 grain bullets the .41 produces about 94% the power of the .44. Intuitively we all know the .44 packs more punch than the .44 but mathematically only 5-6%. From the standpoint of terminal ballistics, a .45 LC enjoys an advantage over the .44 equal to the advantage the .44 enjoys over the .41.

As NCOIC of the Weapons Training Battalion Combat Marksmanship Center of Excellence I was involved in a number of studies regarding incapacitation. Your statement: both kill about the same may be true, but in discussion about terminal ballistics is irrelevant. Death is a result of hydraulic decompression (Blood loss) or destruction of the central nervous system. .Under ideal circumstances decompression takes about 15 seconds for most mammals between 200 and 600 lbs slightly longer for larger animals and is a poor metric for terminal ballistics and incapacitation (more deer are killed every year with broad head arrows than .44 bullets, that doesn’t make an arrow’s terminal ballistics superior in terms of incapacitation). How far can a whitetail get in 10 seconds? Absent an instant destruction of the central nervous system the ability to drop an animal in its tracks depends on incapacitation rather than killing it.

Two factors determine incapacitation; pain and shock. Unfortunately we have no way to ask a deer what that felt like, so any discussion of what a deer may or may not feel is purely speculative. Shock or more precisely ‘hemorrhagic shock’ can be measured and studied.

Hemorrhagic shock results from a sudden loss of large quantities of blood and tissue, the immediate result is primary shock (physical collapse) or total incapacitation. Inducing hemorrhagic shock requires a large permanent wound cavity, the larger the better. There is no hydro-static effect to living tissue, because a hydro-static wound cavity is temporary and the energy is transmitted radially. H_S will not damage elastic tissue, only the brain, liver and kidneys are damaged by hydro-static shock. It’s the size of the wound that causes the shock not energy transfer. When inflicting incapacitating wounds, energy retained in the projectile is far more useful than energy transferred to the surrounding wet tissue. The further a projectile penetrates intact the larger the wound cavity. Once a projectile fragments, exits or stops it is no longer effective, obviously.

Leaving aside the effects of yaw and tumbling a .452 diameter projectile makes a larger hole than a .429 and is less prone (due to is ratio of diameter to velocity) to rapid fragmentation. Fragmentation reduces the size of the wound cavity geometrically resulting in reduced incapacitation.

As you correctly pointed up a .44 will drop most any animal in North America in it’s tracks as often as a .45. That only suggests the .44 is adequate to hunt North American game, it does not suggest the .44 is better or for that matter equal to the .45 in terms of ability to incapacitate. On the contrary, terminal ballistics and incapacitation theory prove just the opposite.

Once again, at typical handgun range a .45 has more knock out power than a .44 period. The .44 will outperform the .45 outside typical handgun range because the smaller diameter projectile will retain more velocity further down range. That’s why it makes an excellent short range rifle cartridge.

Top

[Big Dave]

My 2 cents worth. I have to agree with Murphy, high power loads in 45 cases are in the same class as 357 mag loads in 38 special cases. Extreme care must be taken that they don't get into a gun that will not handle the pressure, that is an old 38 special wheel gun or an old SAA, At least in the 38/357 loading you can seat the boolit long enough to prevent chambering in a 38 special cylinder. Unfortunatly a 45 is a 45 is a45!!!
All that aside, a 45 in a premium magnum quality gun is hard to beat.

[Ed K]

Unfortunately a 45 is a 45 is a45!!!

A Ruger blackhawk cylinder is about 0.080" longer then a colt/colt copy. Why not load to an OAL that would tie up the cylinder in the Colt while leaving 30- 40 thou clearance in the Ruger?

[jwp475]

You had better bet the farm on it, if you intend to keep working the farm. The science of terminal ballistics does not support you. With all due respect; what you think you KNOW about incapacitation and lethality is highly subjective and probably influenced more by Madison Ave. marketing of the term magnum than actual data.

First things first. John Taylor’s “Knock Out” formula is a simple calculation of “thump”. It’s used and endorsed by most large bore handgun designers including John Linebaugh, Jack Fulmer and Evan Whildin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Caliber x Bullet Wt. x Velocity / 7000

Using your parameters from above:
.44 Mag .429 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 22.07 KO
.45 LC .452 x 300 x 1200 / 7000 23.25 HO

Strictly speaking the .44 can manage about 95% the Knock Out power of the .45 under similar conditions. As a bonus, the .45 delivers this power with less wear and tear owing to the larger capacity case and lower pressures.

I know 5% doesn’t sound like much but consider the difference between the .41 and .44; they differ in diameter a nominal .019. Similarly the .44 and .45 differ by a nominal .023. In terms of “thump” w/ 220 grain bullets the .41 produces about 94% the power of the .44. Intuitively we all know the .44 packs more punch than the .44 but mathematically only 5-6%. From the standpoint of terminal ballistics, a .45 LC enjoys an advantage over the .44 equal to the advantage the .44 enjoys over the .41.

As NCOIC of the Weapons Training Battalion Combat Marksmanship Center of Excellence I was involved in a number of studies regarding incapacitation. Your statement: both kill about the same may be true, but in discussion about terminal ballistics is irrelevant. Death is a result of hydraulic decompression (Blood loss) or destruction of the central nervous system. .Under ideal circumstances decompression takes about 15 seconds for most mammals between 200 and 600 lbs slightly longer for larger animals and is a poor metric for terminal ballistics and incapacitation (more deer are killed every year with broad head arrows than .44 bullets, that doesn’t make an arrow’s terminal ballistics superior in terms of incapacitation). How far can a whitetail get in 10 seconds? Absent an instant destruction of the central nervous system the ability to drop an animal in its tracks depends on incapacitation rather than killing it.

Two factors determine incapacitation; pain and shock. Unfortunately we have no way to ask a deer what that felt like, so any discussion of what a deer may or may not feel is purely speculative. Shock or more precisely ‘hemorrhagic shock’ can be measured and studied.

Hemorrhagic shock results from a sudden loss of large quantities of blood and tissue, the immediate result is primary shock (physical collapse) or total incapacitation. Inducing hemorrhagic shock requires a large permanent wound cavity, the larger the better. There is no hydro-static effect to living tissue, because a hydro-static wound cavity is temporary and the energy is transmitted radially. H_S will not damage elastic tissue, only the brain, liver and kidneys are damaged by hydro-static shock. It’s the size of the wound that causes the shock not energy transfer. When inflicting incapacitating wounds, energy retained in the projectile is far more useful than energy transferred to the surrounding wet tissue. The further a projectile penetrates intact the larger the wound cavity. Once a projectile fragments, exits or stops it is no longer effective, obviously.

Leaving aside the effects of yaw and tumbling a .452 diameter projectile makes a larger hole than a .429 and is less prone (due to is ratio of diameter to velocity) to rapid fragmentation. Fragmentation reduces the size of the wound cavity geometrically resulting in reduced incapacitation.

As you correctly pointed up a .44 will drop most any animal in North America in it’s tracks as often as a .45. That only suggests the .44 is adequate to hunt North American game, it does not suggest the .44 is better or for that matter equal to the .45 in terms of ability to incapacitate. On the contrary, terminal ballistics and incapacitation theory prove just the opposite.

Once again, at typical handgun range a .45 has more knock out power than a .44 period. The .44 will outperform the .45 outside typical handgun range because the smaller diameter projectile will retain more velocity further down range. That’s why it makes an excellent short range rifle cartridge.

Top

I have to agree 110%. I have always noted that on game the 45 is definitely higher on the food chain than a 44. One can see the greater physical reaction when the bullet hits as well as a clearly larger diameter entrance hole.

IME&O the 45 is the best all round caliber for anything in the lower 48

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry buy my measurement doesnt come from paper ballistics or math equations or from the opinion of some other guy. John linebaugh is a freind of mine but when i talk about handguns and loads that work i rarely will quote even him. Ive shot as much game with a sixgun as anyone on this fourm and much more then most. Ive take game as small as rabbit and as big as bison with both and many many deer pigs and black bear inbetween and If you can tell me for a fact that a 44 or 45 shooting a hardcast 300 grain lfn at 1200 fps will do a dammed bit differnt in the field your smoking crack. Even John will tell you that. As far as that goes the major differnce between those two and the 475 and 500 will rarely show as effect on an animal. John himself has withnessed what i have. Weve both shot buffalo with the 500 that continued grazing till they fell over dead. What the bigger caliber give you is heavier bullets that tend to penetrate better on very large animals. To say the 45 is a better killer then a 44 is no differnt then saying that the 280 is a much better killer then a 270. To much hype is bottle fed to people by gun writers who need to put something in an article. I would suggest you go out and shoot 50 deer with each and see for yourself. Taylor knock down may work in a big bore rifle that shoots 2000fps but dont bet your life on any sixgun knocking down game. Ive had deer drop in there tracks with shots from a 357 and have had others run a 100 yards with simular shots with a 500 linebaugh. Ive done enough handgun hunting to know that the biggest variable in killing quickly is bullet placement. Have enough gun and load to penetrate to the nervous system and shut it down and the animal goes down. Put a hole through something that causes bleading and the animal is running dead. A bigger hole may cause it to fall one step sooner and a 475 or 500 might knock two steps off that but thats about it and in all reality there no way to even prove that. I get a charge out of guys that think because there shooting something like a 475 or 500 there ready to kill dinasours when in fact there hunting with a weapon that has not a bit more power then a black powder 4570. Funny thing is ive shot 7 bison now with cast bullets in 44s 45s 475s and 500s and the only one shot drop in its tracks shot i made was with a 44 mag using 250 grain bullets. Wasnt really a load i would have intentionaly took buffalo hunting but the opportunity presented itself and thats what i had in the holster. Glad that buffalo didnt know i wastnt shooting a 45 at it. Animals just dont react to hits from slow moving cast bullets like they do from high velocity jackted rifles. Shut off the computer and put down the gun magazines and Go out and kill a few and ill bet you a dime to a dollar you will agree with me.

[30calflash]

Thanks for all the replys I was wondering why David Clements was not working on them any more, so I called him and asked why.He told me that he had seen several that the barrel threads were not cut correctly and so when fired the barrels would move side to side making them unable to get good acccuracy. Up untill that I havent heard a bad thing about the hunter at all.

Jason

It sounded more like a quality cotrol issue than anything else. When you send a gun out for work they will fix the factory problems in the process.

[jwp475]

sorry buy my measurement doesnt come from paper ballistics or math equations or from the opinion of some other guy. John linebaugh is a freind of mine but when i talk about handguns and loads that work i rarely will quote even him. Ive shot as much game with a sixgun as anyone on this fourm and much more then most. Ive take game as small as rabbit and as big as bison with both and many many deer pigs and black bear inbetween and If you can tell me for a fact that a 44 or 45 shooting a hardcast 300 grain lfn at 1200 fps will do a dammed bit differnt in the field your smoking crack. Even John will tell you that. As far as that goes the major differnce between those two and the 475 and 500 will rarely show as effect on an animal. John himself has withnessed what i have. Weve both shot buffalo with the 500 that continued grazing till they fell over dead. What the bigger caliber give you is heavier bullets that tend to penetrate better on very large animals. To say the 45 is a better killer then a 44 is no differnt then saying that the 280 is a much better killer then a 270. To much hype is bottle fed to people by gun writers who need to put something in an article. I would suggest you go out and shoot 50 deer with each and see for yourself. Taylor knock down may work in a big bore rifle that shoots 2000fps but dont bet your life on any sixgun knocking down game. Ive had deer drop in there tracks with shots from a 357 and have had others run a 100 yards with simular shots with a 500 linebaugh. Ive done enough handgun hunting to know that the biggest variable in killing quickly is bullet placement. Have enough gun and load to penetrate to the nervous system and shut it down and the animal goes down. Put a hole through something that causes bleading and the animal is running dead. A bigger hole may cause it to fall one step sooner and a 475 or 500 might knock two steps off that but thats about it and in all reality there no way to even prove that. I get a charge out of guys that think because there shooting something like a 475 or 500 there ready to kill dinasours when in fact there hunting with a weapon that has not a bit more power then a black powder 4570. Funny thing is ive shot 7 bison now with cast bullets in 44s 45s 475s and 500s and the only one shot drop in its tracks shot i made was with a 44 mag using 250 grain bullets. Wasnt really a load i would have intentionaly took buffalo hunting but the opportunity presented itself and thats what i had in the holster. Glad that buffalo didnt know i wastnt shooting a 45 at it. Animals just dont react to hits from slow moving cast bullets like they do from high velocity jackted rifles. Shut off the computer and put down the gun magazines and Go out and kill a few and ill bet you a dime to a dollar you will agree with me.

The only one smoking crack is you, Lloyd. I have shot a few semi trucks full of game with a handgun and you can definitely see the difference in impact between the .45 and the .44. I have always used 300+ grain bullets on the big stuff and if you can't see the difference, you have zero power of observation. There is definietely a step up from .45 to .475 -- a big step up and a smaller step up from the .475 to the .500 and even an inexperienced hunter can see the difference in impact and the reaction of the hunter.

May I suggest 1 (800) OPTOMETRIST if you can't see the difference?

Only Ray Charles couldn't see the difference.

[Dean D.]

Hey guys, just a friendly reminder to keep it civil. Debate is fine. Name calling or character bashing isn't acceptable. Agree to disagree and move on if you can't keep it civil.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First Off, I must say I own revolvers in both calibers.
I am a fan of the 44Mag over the 45LC.
I am sure there is a slight ballistic difference as stated above,
But I can't imagine that slight difference is worth worrying about.

In this modern age, anything is easily available "NEW" from most suppliers.
with that said,
44 is more common, which means it's easier to find reloading
components and dies...second hand...for cheap.
that includes the Gun too.

I prefer DA revolvers ie. the Redhawk, over single action,
but it appears you already have your mind made up on that.
Jon

[two bit okie]

I have been loading and casting 44 mag for over 40 yrs. Before the 45 had much real heater loads available. I have now, 4 44 mags, and am now down two.

If I were just starting out now, I would probably go 45.

However as I am completly set up for casting 3 different 44 bullets 200 gr, 245, and 318 gr. I cannot see adding a different caliber.

SOOOOOOOOOO, do you already have either a 44 or 45. If yes that is probably the one that you should go with.

JMHO, which with a doller, will get you cup of joe and burger king.

[ole 5 hole group]

Dean, everything seems fine to me – just some good ole kibitzing back & forth. Master Gunny is correct with the information he provided but as with most “facts” there’s always a “mystery” as to why something happens when knowing most of the facts – an anomaly may be a better term. I’ve seen moose hit with 308’s and if I hadn’t heard the hits I would have sworn the rounds missed because the moose never reacted to the bullets but a 308 has also put a moose down on the spot.

Bullet placement is key but sometimes animals and humans just don’t act like they should when fatally struck by a large projectile. I know the 45 thumps a little harder than the 44 using the same weight & velocity but I don’t use heavy bullets in the 44 (270 grain) but I go real heavy with the 45’s (340 grain), so maybe there would be a noticable difference but with my limited experience I haven’t noticed anything out of the ordinary.

Ever see a pheasant in flight take off and go vertical at the shot? He always comes down dead with only a pellet or two in him. I’ve experienced this phenomenon twice – once a pellet to the heart (1-#5 pellet) and the other time 2 pellets to the head. Why did he go vertical for 50 feet instead of coming straight down or setting his wings and glide off to hell & gone? That’s about all I can add to this discussion but I always have been in the bigger is better camp, as that was what I was taught over 60 years ago – life got better when I moved up from the 410 to a 12 gauge. I think senility was the main reason I moved up from the 45 Colt to the 500L Max.

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i dont know how you could prove it. Stand 10 animals up and hit them with both in the same exact spot and you will have 20 differnt reactions to a hit. Ill stand behind what ive seen with my own two eyes. either will kill and not a single animal on earth hit with both in the vitals would give differnt final results. I probaly shoot 30 whitetails a year doing crop damage with handguns and sure couldnt tell you a differnce. 90 percent of them hunch up and run 20-50 yards and drop dead. Doesnt seem to matter much what caliber there hit with. If you really think that a .22 thousands bigger bullet through the lungs means anything ive got a bridge to sell you. Problem with all of this is its impossible to prove either way. One guy can shoot a couple deer with a 45 and get lucky and have quick kills and fully believe it kills better but shoot enough of them and you will see every reaction to a bullet thats possible and no real rhymm or reason for it. Another thing is a guy will really like a caliber and tend to see it in a better light then another and remember the good kills and kind of forget the ones he chased. Ive got as many 45 colts as about anyone here and never said they werent an excellent hunting round. Its just i kind of tire of people that think its some kind of majical killing machine. In fact that if you want to use math to equate perfomance a 44 bullet of the same exact weight and design will usually outpenetrate a 45 bullet. You want to see paper performance look back at the old linebaugh seminar penetration test. You will find one where i shot a 340 lfn at 1200 fps out of a ruger that bested all the 45 colt loads and the only thing that did better was a couple of the many 475 loads that were shot that year. Ill bow out of this argument gracefully now that its become one. Its like convincing a ford man a chev is better. eveyone has there own opinion and are welcome to believe in them.

The only one smoking crack is you, Lloyd. I have shot a few semi trucks full of game with a handgun and you can definitely see the difference in impact between the .45 and the .44. I have always used 300+ grain bullets on the big stuff and if you can't see the difference, you have zero power of observation. There is definietely a step up from .45 to .475 -- a big step up and a smaller step up from the .475 to the .500 and even an inexperienced hunter can see the difference in impact and the reaction of the hunter.

May I suggest 1 (800) OPTOMETRIST if you can't see the difference?

Only Ray Charles couldn't see the difference.

[tek4260]

I have to agree with you Lloyd. No deer shot behind the shoulder with a handgun will drop in its tracks unless you hit the spine. My first deer with a handgun was shot with a factory 240 at about 40 yards. Behind the shoulders and it ran about 50 yards. Dad killed one the next week from the same stand with his 500 Smith, 350(?) factory loads. The deer was shot behind the shoulders like mine and fell dead in about 50 yards as well. I have killed 9 since then with handguns and most with 45's shooting 325's. They all have fell sooner with that load over the factory 44. I have some 300's loaded in my 44 that I will try this year and I figure they will do about the same as the 325 45's. I do believe Linebaugh that the 45 is better than the 44. How much better? I have no clue. Guess I have to burn a few more pounds of H110 and try to decide.

[Bass Ackward]

Not many facts ever grace these boards, but I will give you one. And for the uneducated folks it won't contain any math.

History fails to show a single animal killed by a 44 Mag or a 45 Colt. Nor any other cartridge. Those cartridges go in to guns or launching platforms. The launching systems don't kill much either unless you beat it to death with one. Those items work together to launch bullets.

Bullets have weight and energy provided by the strike velocity and the bullet design and construction govern the tissue displacement and energy transfer. And the reaction is different in different game or the same animal based upon the material density struck.

So arguing about the gun or the caliber tells me that more education / understanding / practical experience is required. Regardless of any kill numbers listed or container sizes filled.

So does a bullet from a 45 Colt out kill a 44 Mag with equal length barrels? (even with math!) Yes. Under certain conditions. But .........

If you are going to violate SAAMI pressure levels for one, why not the other? Understand that in the same handgun type, there will always be more steel in the smaller caliber gun providing more strength. That strength will allow a higher breach of SAAMI standard pressures. More pressure makes more velocity and THAT makes any meplat work better ruining the bigger bore diameter is always better "theory".

[Blammer]

get the 44 cause you have a bunch o boolit selections.

See!



that's my reasoning.

[David2011]

Blammer,

That's a vulgar selection. You should be ashamed to wag that many boolits in front of us.

David

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

thanks alot Blammer, now i gotta go change my undies !!!
Jon