New 1874 Sharps advice???

[NickSS]

I have used GOEX plain FFG and FG as well as cartridge grade. I have yet to buy any express but I have also shot Elephat brand FFG and FFFG, Shutzen FFG and Swiss 1.5. I also have used until it was used up some Curtis and Harvey FFG and Pyrodex P and RS in BPCR for one thing or another. Interestingly I have gotten excellent results from all of them in the area of 1 to 1.5 MOA with some tinkering. I will say that at longer ranges like 800, 900 and 1000 yards I like a bigger cartridge than 45-70. I have competed with a 45-70 at those ranges but if I were to do nore of it I would definatetely get either a 45-90 or a 45-100 chambering. However, I am not likely to do that type of competition in the future so I stick with the 45-70. I have also found that a bullet of around 500 gr works very well in the 45-70. I have shot heavier bullets but the one time I did shoot extream long range (1200 yards) I used a 500 gr government bullet over 67 gr of FFG GOEX. I managed to come in third in that match though that was when my eyes still worked well. By the way the guy who won that match was shooting a Muzzle loading Parker Hale Volunteer rifle with a 480 gr bullet and `30 gr of FFG Goex. He only dropped 1 point and only missed the X ring twice. I am still in awe nearly 20 years after the fact.

[saz]

"By the way the guy who won that match was shooting a Muzzle loading Parker Hale Volunteer rifle with a 480 gr bullet and `30 gr of FFG Goex. He only dropped 1 point and only missed the X ring twice. I am still in awe nearly 20 years after the fact."

WOW!!!

[mustanggt]

Saz, I have a 45-70 in an 1874 C. Sharps Arms. It has a #1 heavy barrel, shotgun checkered butt plate, extra fancy wood, pewter forend tip, Mid range Soule sites, globe spirit level front sight. I love that gun. The case coloring is beautiful. I've seen some on those Italian jobs and they aren't as good in my opinion. I looked around for awhile and looked at many kinds. I touched and smelled them. I finally made my decision last year to go with C Sharps because I saw two guys at the range who had many of them and I got to look at them and shoot them and one of the guys has become a good friend who's taught me alot about the game. As far as my buying experience with C Sharps it was excellent. John couldn't have been nicer. He even showed me a couple of fishing holes for the wife and I to flyfish while we drove 600 miles on two different trips to pick up the 74 and a more plain Jane 75 model. In July they were all on vacation for a week which was the time we were coming to get the 74 so Joe came in just so I could pick up my rifle. That is good customer service. I would go the extra mile and get the better gun. I am old enough to figure out that I won't be happy unless I spend the extra $$$ to get good quality stuff. I've spent enough on cheap stuff over the years that I could have gotten the better quality item and paid just once.

[Gellot Wilde]

Have any of you guys got either of the Big Timber rifles that you've had the antique finish done on?

[Yellowhouse]

Watch Gunbroker like Don said....also Cabelas (just google 'Cabelas Shiloh"). There have been some really good buys on Shiloh and C. Sharps the last 6 months and I mean real good ones.

[cajun shooter]

As far as the 45-70 V 45-90 V 45-110 and so on all he has to do is ream the 45-70. You can shoot for the period it takes to learn all the little tricks and then step up with the same rifle that got him there. For competition he could go with the Dan Theodore Pedersoli reamer for his bullet design.

[montana_charlie]

For competition he could go with the Dan Theodore Pedersoli reamer for his bullet design.

What's that?
CM

[cajun shooter]

MC, John BOY used it on his rifle. The pedersoli rifles are made with more free bore . The bullet design from what I understand is the results of Theodore, Jones ,Trent. It is made by Paul Jones in mold form. Go to his site and look at page 2 of the rifle bullets. It is the last bullet shown. It is my understanding that only 2 people have the reamer to do it with. As I said John Boy could go further with the info. Take Care In 45-70 I load the Saeco 725 bullet.

[pls1911]

I respect our domestic builders whose products are second to none.
However, I do have 3 Sharps 74's and 2 Rollingblocks of Pedersoli manufacture, all 45-70s.
All are sweet, with nice fit, finish and wood quality.
All shoot very well indeed.
Get 'em used, as many buyers never shoot'em!!

[montana_charlie]

The bullet design from what I understand is the results of Theodore, Jones ,Trent. It is made by Paul Jones in mold form.

Ahh! I see what you mean...but you have it wrong.

The U.S. representative for Pedersoli, the late Dick Trenk, had a desire to get a bullet designed specifically for the Pedersoli throat.
The parent company bore the cost of the project and (the late) Dr. Dick Gunn provided the expertise. Trenk oversaw the project and did some range testing of prototypes.

Once a suitable design had been devised, Victory Molds was hired to produce a number of moulds which were then 'lent out' to a succession of shooters who would use the design in their rifles.
The 'loaner mould' program was shepherded to conclusion by Dick Trenk, and the bullet was declared a successful one. Since the design is in the public domain, any machinist may produce moulds for it without violating any proprietary rights.

After about a year, Victory Moulds closed down and Paul Jones eventually came to offer the design as one of his stock items.

Jones calls it the 'Pedersoli Throat'.
But, it's true designation is the '.460 550 Pedersoli/Gunn/Trenk' bullet. It is spec'd to have a .460" diameter and weigh 550 grains in 20:1 alloy.
Most of us refer to it as the "PGT'' in honor of those people who actually were involved in it's creation.

http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_sc...enk_bullet.htm

CM

[Don McDowell]

And whats even more interesting than all that is, that noone has used a Pedersoli rifle and the pgt bullet to win a national shoot......Not even real sure there's been a top 10 showing...

[saz]

need to learn to read charlie. that honcho status should mean that you read what is written and answer accordingly. the questions stand and id like to see the answer as well. im a newbeee to this but i also have some little bit of experience elswhere which simply means that i dont lay all my eggs in one basket so if i/we try to compare this new vise to something that is known then whats the harm?

also saz...id like to ask you if there are stores down there that actually carrie the real black as there is none i can find in fairbanks. might neet to make a run to anckortown for a few lbs of the real stuff for a change.

thanks fellas.

Ted

Ted,
I dont know how I missed your post, sorry. The only place in anchorage that carries real black is Great Northern Guns. They usually have all the grades of Goex, but will order Swiss if you need to but it is expensive. Give them a call.

[martinibelgian]

Don,
I know you like to badmouth the Pedersoli stuff - but look international, their rifles do hold a lot of world records, even if most of them for ML rifles. Those rifles can and will shoot - and I'm pretty sure that if you put one into the hands of 1 of the top shots, those 1st places would follow.
And no, I don't own or shoot any Pedersoli rifle, and they don't pay me to make publicity for them. I actually don't care a lot for their rifles - but also don't see much reason to badmouth their products. You want a win? In 2006, at the Cape Town world championships, A Brit shooting a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 ended 1st at the 900m distance, against stiff international (including US) competition. Of course, that's only an international shoot.... Bottom line? Many, mabe most rifles will do it - but it's the shooter/reloader that makes the difference.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Matrinbelgian,

Don however is right, this well thought out and designed bullet has yet to really show in the winners circle. Pedersoli rifles do shoot well, one of the very best shooting 45-90's I have ever shot was a Bodine Roller owned by my friend Kenny Durham. its a tac driver. He was not using the PGT Bullet although. I do think this is an excellent bullet and if it were not, Paul Jones would not cut a mould for it. His opinion of the bullet is not an endorsement, in otherwords, it is not a magic bullet.

the 45-70 Pedersoli win at 900 meters good deal, good for him, Was this with the PGT Bullet? In another light, I have a Dozen Gold Medals from The National NRA Champion ships, Each a indivual win at 800 yards alone. Done with Iron (MVA) Sights and Scope (MVA). 5-6 golds just for the 1000 yard line also. I do not recall at the moment how many at 900 but it is only a couple. A great big one that says National Champion on it also, and 2, 5@200 Wins. Many regional, wins placings, on and on. I have done this with a Mono Groove Grease Groove bullet and with Paper Patch. All the above done with a Shiloh LR Express in 45-110, a round famed for its lack of accuracy. Recently at Alliance Neb I was Second in scope Class. This was shooting 2 different rifles though.

All the above also proves your point, it's the Shooter and the loads, however you have to have the finest in rifles-barrels to deliver the shot, and sights to also make the corrections that make the X's and Tens.

Now in a final thought, I have a great friend who owns a Pedersoli rifle that he has had for years, it shoots ok, however he must mine lead out of the worst looking barrel we have ever seen with a bore scope straight from the Pedersoli factory, after every single relay to maintain some sembelance of accuracy.

Where it a Shiloh he would of been able to send it back and had it rebarreled and no been fighting a losing battle for the past 5-6 years.

Dont get me wrong I have a Shiloh at the Factory that is getting rebarreled right now.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Don,
I know you like to badmouth the Pedersoli stuff - but look international, their rifles do hold a lot of world records, even if most of them for ML rifles. Those rifles can and will shoot - and I'm pretty sure that if you put one into the hands of 1 of the top shots, those 1st places would follow.
And no, I don't own or shoot any Pedersoli rifle, and they don't pay me to make publicity for them. I actually don't care a lot for their rifles - but also don't see much reason to badmouth their products. You want a win? In 2006, at the Cape Town world championships, A Brit shooting a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 ended 1st at the 900m distance, against stiff international (including US) competition. Of course, that's only an international shoot.... Bottom line? Many, mabe most rifles will do it - but it's the shooter/reloader that makes the difference.

Gert NOT bad mouthing the Pedersoli stuff. Simply pointing out that here in the USA there are much better options for not much more money.
Dennis Wiley shot his way onto the US Creedmoor team with a pedersoli, and razzledazzled the hell out of em in south Africa until he got sick. (didn't use the ptg bullet)
Bryan Youngberg shot some tremendous scores with his rechambered pedersoli at Kenny's Creedmoor match in 05 ( wasn't shooting the ptg bullet)
Wendy Sage set some Raton womens records at Raton shooting a Pedersoli (didn't use the ptg)

Once again for the weak minded. NOT BASHING PEDERSOLI PRODUCTS AT ALL.
Simply stating that with careful price comparison, a Shiloh or C Sharps can be had for not much more money. Thereby using hard earned AMERICAN dollars to help support hard working AMERICAN craftsmen. And that a bullet that was rolled out with much fanfare and bluster, hasn't really accomplished as much as a lowly ol Lyman Ideal design that's been around for 100 years or so now..... and from a mould that costs a good bit less than the nearest available ptg mould.

And just to aleviate anymore of this bullspit. I do own and occasionally shoot an Italian rifle that can and will shoot with a BigTimber built gun.... IF the dang thing doesn't fall apart first... and then it's two weeks minimum hours of fitting to get the broken part, and ,,,,,oh well.......

[EDG]

Your same old story is repeated after your disclaimer.
There is no way you can buy a Shiloh or C Sharps for what you pay for a used Pedersoli. Few BPCRs are shot much by the original owners. I don't see any advantage for buying a new rifle and waiting a long time for it. Of course if you want a real bargain buy one of the Miroku made Highwalls.

[Don McDowell]

Your same old story is repeated after your disclaimer.
There is no way you can buy a Shiloh or C Sharps for what you pay for a used Pedersoli. Few BPCRs are shot much by the original owners. I don't see any advantage for buying a new rifle and waiting a long time for it. Of course if you want a real bargain buy one of the Miroku made Highwalls.

Very true you can't buy a used Big Timber gun for what you'ld pay for a used Italian. (seems there might be something going on there other than a major conspiracy )
When you compare new prices the original price difference isn't all that great.
Waiting? Well yah you'll have to wait awhile for a Shiloh if they don't have anything on the rack you want, or if Goodman doesn't have one on hand that will suit....Or if you don't find one on one of the gun selling sites that someone got and hasn't fired...(ps have a shiloh on order, should be done about this time next year)
C Sharps, the last one I got from them was 30 days from the day I ordered it until the day I was going thru the barrel breakin.... Course they have an available list of a fairly good selection of rifles ready to ship....
Real Bargains? Well there's a couple , the C Sharps 1875, and the Winchester Miroku built bpcr's. Either is capable of taking a shooter from the box to the firing line and being competitive and will come in at or below a Pedersoli sharps prices.
Yup, I always say pretty much the same thing. IT's called something I've learned from first hand experience.
I'm not an internet expert, I don't even play one on the internet.
BUT I DO SPEAK FROM 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS GAME.
How about you EDG? What's your story?

[martinibelgian]

Kenny,
I'm pretty sure that if someone put a Pedersoli in your hands and you'd go through the steps of making it perform, you'd still remain in the winner's list. Does that mean they only have 1st-rate stuff? of course not. Then again, I've already met people who had a 'lemon' Shiloh too... Maybe fewer and further in between, but...
Still, the fact remains that you can get a pretty decent rifle a a pretty good price right now. The bullet? a detail, if the barrel isn't good, no bullet will perform. If you have a good barrel, almost any correctly-dimensioned bullet will shoot well. Then it is up to the shooter to finetune in order to find the best combination. Lots of time and effort!
FWIW, here in Europe you can almost double the Shiloh prices you have to pay... Give a mediocre shooter the best material, that won't make him a top performer. Give a good shooter a halfway decent rifle, and he'll still shoot good scores and beat most of the competition. This is a shooter's game, not an equipment game!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

"If you have a good barrel, almost any correctly-dimensioned bullet will shoot well."

I can shoot holes in that statment all day long.
Lastly with current prices Pedersoli's are no bargin compairing new to new at this time.

And I would much rather See American Gun company, their workers maintain gainful employment then watch Italian gun makers who do not have to pay the same taxes, cut out and put our Gunmakers out of business with a "cheaper Product"

Try getting a rebarrel on your pedersoli around this country aint Happening, I already tried to make that point clear you must of missed it in my last post.

Fact remains, the bullet mentioned and rifles do not shoot the best scores hell they can not even place in their own match at Raton, the 5@200.. Those are Facts and true statments I posted so far I have got conjecture in yours.

The Lunger
KW

Keep it American and Keep Americans Employed.

[martinibelgian]

KW,

I don't mind you plugging US-made products, but better get your facts straight. BTW, when talking about getting a rebarrel? Try getting a rebarrel on a Shiloh in Europe... as you say, it ain't happening either.

Prices? A quick check on the 'net shows following: Cheapest 1874 PG Shiloh I can find is 1902,- (LRE), a C. Sharps for 1895,- (no PG though, costs 80,-). Buffalo Arms sells a 1874 PG Ped for 1403,- Difference of 500 might just be pretty serious if you're on a budget (how about an MVA tang sight for that price?). Will the Shiloh be better? It most probably will be - it damn well should be for 500 more...

Will the Italian rifle have less of a fit and finish? Yes, almost certainly. Will it shoot? Well, I've seen Peds beat Shilohs here in Europe. And win international competitions. And I've seen it the other way too. Hell, I've even seen a Uberti Hiwall shoot a perfect score and leave all others behind - including Shilohs and Pedersoli's (and me). Those are also facts and true statements. Fact is, you won't find all that many Shilohs in the winner's circle here (then again, there aren't that many around).

And as to taxes? Well, if you only look at your side of the pond, that might be - and I for sure wouldn't know, so I will refrain from making such absolute statements. Mind you, Italy taxes their gunmakers too... And I do believe most European firearms manufacturers will be singing that very same song about US imports when talking about modern rifles.

Do I have a Pedersoli? No. Do I want one? again, no. Have I seen 'lemons' from Pedersoli? yes, I've seen some. But lots of good ones too. Does that mean Pedersoli rifles are bad? most certainly not.

Also, in ML, which rifles get most medals in international competition - just check the MLAIC laureates list. Exactly...

I'll leave it at that.