Wc867 & 872

[RayinNH]

I received an E-mail from Widener's today. They have WC867 and WC872 for $49.00 per 8# jug. Not bad if you like the slow burners...Ray

[MT Gianni]

Unfamiliar with 867 but I like 860 & 872.

[res45]

For some of us new guys that haven't had the chance to experience using those two powder and might cross paths with them one day,what calibers are they best suited for?

[wiljen]

These are 50 BMG and 20mm powders. Unless you get into cases the size of 300 weatherby or larger, you cannot possibly generate enough pressure to be a problem with a full case of powder. As an example, a full case worth of powder in the 30-06 behind a 311291 with a WLRM primer will get you about 1900fps from a 24" barrel. I've burned a lot of 860 in a wide variety of rounds almost always with magnum primers and usually for fairly sedate velocities but good accuracy.

at $45 for 8lbs, pick up a keg and enjoy some cheap shooting.

[doubs43]

I use WC-860 in my 38-55 and 45-70 duplex loads. It shoots exactly the same as 8700 did.

For the 38-55, I use 2.5 grains of WW-231 and 32.0 grains of WC-860 with a 320 grain cast bullet in Starline 2.125" cases.

In the 45-70 I use 3.0 grains of WW-231 and 57.0 grains of WC-860 topped by a 320 grain RCBS GC cast bullet.

A standard LR primer is used for both loads. Extremely consistent velocities and very accurate in my rifles.

The 872 that Widners offers is a deal and should work fine when my WC-860 runs out.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm another "duplex loader" of WC-860 in the 45-70. 6.0 grains of IMR-4198 followed by 48.0 grains of WC-860 gives 100% loading density in R-P cases with the Lee 405 grain plain base boolit. Use of Federal #215 primers gives fine accuracy, no unburned powder kernels, and 1873 ballistics--about 1300 FPS.

[Wayne Smith]

Years ago I used H870 in my 25-06. One shooter praised it saying "It's so slow it burns all the way to the target!" I think these powders are all similar to the old H870. If so I need to get some.

[midnight]

I use 872 in the 50BMG. So far I got 2500+fps with a 690gr jacketed. It's much slower than 50BMG. 195gr of 50BMG gives me 2100fps with a 833gr cast bullet. 195gr of 872 gives over 2300fps which was too fast for the linotype bullet. Pressures were fine with both loads. I'm going to try 872 with the 6.5x55 next. The Swede works well with 4831 and RL22 so 872 should work with 140+gr bullets. The BMG can probably be pushed to 2600 to 2700 from my 30in barrel with a little more 872.


Bob

[-06]

9.3 and Doups, Are you guys mixing powders? If so please advise as am very interested in trying it also. PM info please, thanks.

[wiljen]

The Term mixing is a very very dangerous word when talking about duplexing loads.

a duplex load must be a compressed load with a small amount of fast powder held directly against the flash-hole that serves as the ignitor for the larger amount of super slow powder on top of it.

Mixing the powders would ruin the load, cause uneven burn, terrible accuracy/consistency and potentially far worse problems.

general rules for duplexing loads are as follows.

1.) a fast powder goes between the flash-hole and the main charge.

2.) use as bulky a fast powder as possible for the ignitor charge. (Never use ball powders as they can migrate even under pressure). Large flake powders or stick powders are preferable here.

(Example I use 3gr of unique in the 45-70 against the flashhole).

3.) gently add the main charge so it disturbs the ignitor as little as possible and make sure the main charge takes up enough room that when a bullet is seated the powder column cannot shift or move and thus mix the powders.

If enough powder cannot be used to accomplish this, a filler must be used to make certain the load does not shift and mix the charges

(Here, I recommend Grex as it is what I typically use).

4.) start with a small ignitor charge (2-3gr) and only work up til you get a clean burn. More is not better, just wasteful.

[RayinNH]

Update to my original post, Widener's now has these two powders for $39.00 per 8 pound jug...Ray

[9.3X62AL]

I use 872 in the 50BMG. So far I got 2500+fps with a 690gr jacketed. It's much slower than 50BMG. 195gr of 50BMG gives me 2100fps with a 833gr cast bullet. 195gr of 872 gives over 2300fps which was too fast for the linotype bullet. Pressures were fine with both loads. I'm going to try 872 with the 6.5x55 next. The Swede works well with 4831 and RL22 so 872 should work with 140+gr bullets. The BMG can probably be pushed to 2600 to 2700 from my 30in barrel with a little more 872.


Bob

What Wiljen said, concerning duplex loading.

I've used a full case of WC-860 (55.0 grains) in the 6.5 x 55 with 140 grain jacketed bullets, and got 1895-level ballistics--2450-2475 FPS and very good accuracy. WLR standard primers did well. Credit to Buckshot for that info.

[dverna]

Why use 45+ grains of $50 powder to do what 15 grains of $120 powder will do?

Or add another step in the process by using a duplex load?

Don

[RayinNH]

Why use 45+ grains of $50 powder to do what 15 grains of $120 powder will do?

Don

Excellent accuracy for one, safety for two, no chance of double charging and low pressure to boot...Ray

[9.3X62AL]

Why use 45+ grains of $50 powder to do what 15 grains of $120 powder will do?

Or add another step in the process by using a duplex load?

Don

Don--

In the not-too-distant past, WC-860 could be had for $24/8# flask. At that price level, duplexing and filling the case up made sense economically. When the loads shot accurately, an "addiction" became possible. And an affordable one, at that.

An equivalent load in 45-70 using IMR-4198 uses 28.0 grains to get 1300 FPS. These shoot well, but not as well as the duplex loadings.

As for the 6.5 x 55, the loads using WC-860 match the best loads the rifle has shot at 100 and 200 yards, group for group. IMR-4831 can yield about 200 FPS more velocity, but no better accuracy. I doubt the deer would feel cheated by the absence of that 200 FPS of speed.

I'm not worried about load economics to an extreme degree. The use of surplus powders can in some instances become a sub-hobby of its own.

[brakeline]

It's not clear to me - this thread started out to be about WC-867 and WC-872 being available at very low cost - currently $39/8 lbs. at Wideners, but then somehow WC-860 crept into the discussion. Is WC-860 equivalent to the other two, or very similar at least? Every time I see these $5/lb prices at Wideners, I start to wonder what, if any, negative consequences are there for using a far-too-slow powder in the small cases that I mostly shoot. For example, what would be the problems, if any, of stuffing a Hornet case full of one of these powders, or a 25/20 case, or a 30/30 case? Sure it might not all burn, but at $5/lb vs. the store prices of $2X per lb. for the normally recommended powders, who cares? I just have to believe that the cartridge is still going to go "bang" and the bullet will still come out the end of the barrel - maybe at a couple of hundred feet per second less than normal loads? Any body out there that wants to help me with these thoughts, I sure would like to hear from you.....

dan

[Maven]

brakeline, All 3 are very slow burning milsurp powders, with WC 872 being [in theory] the slowest. Would I use them in smaller cartridges, including the low pressure .30-30Win.? No! In fact, I wouldn't use them in any cartridge smaller than the .270Win., although some would contest that. E.g., I tried WC 860 in both the .243Win. and 6.5 x 55mm Swe. Mau. and was completely dissatisfied with the results. Said propellants work best with larger capacity, high pressure cartridges with heavy CB's, almost full loadings (no less than 46gr. WC 860 in the .30-06 + CB's of at least 175gr. or more, for ex.), and mag. primers. For loading data, take a look at this: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Surplus/default.html

[hydraulic]

Slow powder-4831, 872, 860- in the amount of 46 grains, as Maven mentioned, loaded behind a 200 gr. cast bullet will operate the action of an M1 reliably with good accuracy. Fast pistol powders will not.

[Wayne Smith]

brakeline, All 3 are very slow burning milsurp powders, with WC 872 being [in theory] the slowest. Would I use them in smaller cartridges, including the low pressure .30-30Win.? No! In fact, I wouldn't use them in any cartridge smaller than the .270Win., although some would contest that. E.g., I tried WC 860 in both the .243Win. and 6.5 x 55mm Swe. Mau. and was completely dissatisfied with the results. Said propellants work best with larger capacity, high pressure cartridges with heavy CB's, almost full loadings (no less than 46gr. WC 860 in the .30-06 + CB's of at least 175gr. or more, for ex.), and mag. primers. For loading data, take a look at this: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Surplus/default.html

Maven is right, but I would add that they are useful in what used to be considered seriously overbore cartridges; e.g. the Weatherby line, some of the AI cases, the 25-06, etc.

[MT Gianni]

I interchanged data with 860 and 872 after working things up with my lots in a 30-06. For starting loads I went to Castpics and used Buckshots data -3 grains then refined it to my gun.