Anyone have one of these to check bullet runout and correct it in the same tool?
I have the RCBS CaseMaster but you can not straighten a bullet in the case while in the tool.
I know ideally one should not get runout when they load but I thought this is a great idea at a reasonable price if it actually works.
The run out gage should be used to set your dies up for prevention of run out. That is like spilling oil on the floor and having a medical team stand by instead of picking up the oil.
I agree with Doc Highwall. It took me a while thinking about the new Hornady tool, thinking that it was a great ideal and I was almost about to purchase one. But you shouldn't have to fix and continue to fix something in a situation like this. Use the concentricity gauge to check for runout and adjust your dies and then you won't have to keep fixing your loaded rounds in an ongoing bases.
Now a little twist to this topic if you don't mind leadman. I just recently got a Sinclair concentricity gauge and was checking some of my previously loaded rounds. Some were perfect, some within three thousandths and some way out there. Some of the ones way out there were loaded with new unfired brass. So my question is, is measuring loaded rounds with unfired brass a waste of time? Even though I ran the brass though the sizing die before loading, I still have rounds measuring out of round by 6 to 7 thousandths. So I ran some Lapua unfired brass on the concentricity gauge and while most averaged two thousandths, some was at three thousandths. I'm thinking reloaded once fired brass out of the same gun (neck sizing) would produce the least runout and that is what do set your dies for. Just my thinking... someone have a different ideal?
Leadman,
I tried one of the tools at Camp Perry a couple days ago. It is easy to use and seems to be well built. I took in my 600 yd bullets (Sierra 80gr MK) and tested about 40 rounds. They were all within a couple thousanth's which I was happy with.
I did try adjusting a bullet to go from .002 to .000. It would take a lot of fiddling to get rounds to .000. You can't simply adjust by .002, you go way over, according to the micrometer and then re-measure. It would take several tries to get it right. I gave up after three tries.
I don't plan to buy one...
John
Being one who is satisfied w/practical accuracy, ie. that which is needed for hunting, I've never become familiar with the terminology that bench rest shooters use when discussing there reloading problems. Keeping that in mind---
Is run out the same as misalignment? or eccentricity? Eccentric to what? Certainly it;s conceivable that a set of dies be mis manufactured, there by forcing a misalignment but I believe that most of the "run out" is caused by variable case neck thickness.
Many times it's easily seen with the naked eye. Certainly with magnification and measurable with our many tools.
If you really need concentrically loaded bullets(Condoms) you'd best decide on which neck turning tools you will buy.
With Boolets you've introduced another problem, that of shaving. Again, the correct tools, such as the "M" die will aid you.
So-- is "Run Out" a general term? How do we differentiate between the eccentrically loaded round and the canted or tilted boolet?
Inquiring minds need to know.
Pepe Ray
The way is ONLY through HIM.
Anybody that tells you they get no runout of case or seated bullet is a fool that doesn't know precision loading. I don't have the Hornady unit but I have similar ones, mine are not Commercial units so names would mean nothing here. The Hornady looks good, like you said the RCBS only idicates runout with no way for correction, a futile exercise. You can do the same with a valley cut piece of wood and an attached mic. If I had none I would probably buy the Hornady and learn how to use it. Runout is just a number there are allot of variables to getting the job done in the shooting game the big variable being you the shooter.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Last edited by stephen perry; 08-08-2010 at 06:48 PM.
I use a O-ring with my dies to let them float just enough to find the path of least resistance which gives straighter rounds with the least amount of run-out. Locking the dies down rigid in the press does not mean they are aligned with the ram and shell holder or that you tighten the lock ring square to the threads. Try this take one of your dies and after it is screwed all the ray down to the lock ring back it off about 1/2 turn and see how much it will wiggle back and forth you can see the misalignment. This is due to the fact that these are machined or cut threads and have tolerances and to get the tightest fit for threads you have to grind them and lap them. It is a lot easier to use a O-ring under the die and there are two ways that I know of. Machine a lock ring to accept a O-seal or use a LEE lock ring jammed with a regular lock ring. I have attached two pictures for you to look at.
I have the Neco tool, which allows for checking runout of loaded ammo, as well as a bunch of other stuff. It is a good tool, but does not allow for straightening of the ammo.
As already pointed out, there are several variables that can induce runout, among them "bannana bend" in fired cases, and uneven neck thickness. There is a camp that says if you try to strighten loaded rounds, you are bending the neck or shoulder, inducing another problem.
There is /was a tool on the market that consists of a large block of metal that has been reamed with a chamber reamer for the cartridge, leaving only the bullet sicking through a window which has a jack screw with a pivot on the end on one side, and an indicator on the other. I think this would be the best design, and started making a similar tool with removable inserts made from 1" diameter stock, to be reamed with the same reamer my chambers are cut with. I have yet to finish it.
I would like to eventually like to finish the tool and do some testing, but it's one of those projects that got off track. I can say I have measured quite a bit of factory ammo, and it is very concentric. Plain old Remington green & yellow core-lokt and BT ammo is some very straight stuff.
Another trick to letting your loading setup float is to remove the spring clip that holds the shellholder in the ram and replace it with an o-ring.
On another site a member used the Hornady tool to check rounds sized and loaded with different brands and grades of dies. He got the least amount of bullet runout with the Redding match type dies.
So now that I am back home I am going to check a loaded round that is way off anf disassemble it and try to find the cause of the excessive runout.
I did check some sized brass and several cases were between 2 and 3 thousands out of round at the neck.
I'm using Lee dies but will not condem them yet until I check things out.
Thanks for your opinions.
PepeRay, the bullet in my cases is tipped on when the loaded case is rolled in v-blocks with a dial indicator on the bullet one can measure how much it is wobbling.
leadman, when a person that is not familiar with loading lead bullets and they assume that reloading dies are just dies they run into trouble and then the learning curve begins. Dies for bottle neck cases are the worst, take a 308 Win for example they are made to size the case and seat a .308" jacketed bullet that is about 100 times harder then a hard cast bullet. I do not know of a set of dies for a bottle neck case that come with an expander die. We are lucky that companies like Lyman make a M-die to expand the neck ID of the case for a bullet larger then .308" and expand the mouth at the same time to allow the larger and softer cast bullet to enter and be seated with out being shaved. Straight wall die set like 38-55 are not much better, they give you a die for belling the case mouth but it is for a jacketed bullet not cast. Some companies like Lyman and RCBS are making some that are geared towards cowboy action shooting for shooting cast bullets. Here at Cast Boolit we share our knowledge with others pretty freely. I shoot a 308 Win with bullets that are sized .310" and my expander is .309" or only .001" smaller then the bullet that I am reloading.
The Bersin Tool lets you check for runout and straighten, in the same tool also, if you have any. Just out of curiosity, I checked some Weatherby brand ammo a year or so ago, priced at well over $100 a box. Some of those rounds had as much as .010 runout fresh from the factory. None of them had less than .005 to .006. Other factory ammo showed the same thing. You could lay it down on a flat surface and see the bullet wobble.
My mother always said I was the Flower of the Family, The Blooming Idiot
i started with this bullet run out thing a couple of years ago with high hopes of elimiting the flier. i realy thought i was on to something till a couple of days ago. i was shooting my heavy weigth ar-.223.
i just got done shooting two less then 1/2'' groups and had 5 rounds left that measured 4-5 thousands of run out .
i could not believe all 5 went in the same hole, might be the best group i have ever shot in my life.
it kind of put all my concerns of bullet on the way back burner ( until i need another excuse agin )
jim
jimr, the problem is not that the rounds have run-out because it is possible that if the run-out of each loaded round was oriented the same in the chamber you could still shoot a good group. The problem is when one round points up at 12 o'clock and another points at 6 o'clock you get two different points of impact. I have seen test where the person had deliberately mutilated the bullets in the same way and placed them in the chamber with half pointing in one direction and the other half pointing in the opposite direction and made two distinct groups.
I condemmed the Lee dies, the bullet seating stem is machined off-center. Bought a standard Redding set, better, but still have up to .005" runout. I have corrected some loaded rounds by pushing on the neck while the bullet point is held with the side on the shelf of my bench.
One thing i did not take into account was the variation in case neck thickness. Some brass varies by .002" or more.
I bought Lapua brass for my 243 Win (expensive), best brass I have ever seen! Getting ready for an antelope hunt so loading J-word bullets using the Redding standard set. I did reduce group size with the Lapua brass to just over 1" at 100 yards.
Also loaded some 7mmRem Mag with Hornady dies, the run-out was much less with the Hornady dies with Win. brass , than the 243 with Lapua and the Redding set.
I think I will exchange the Redding set.
When I am done hunting in the fall I am going to check my cast boolit ammo and see if there are runout concerns there.
I did find out that the chamfering tool used does affect runout. I am going to get a Lyman VLD chamfering tool, or try an M die with jacketed and see what happens.
I just bought one of the Hornady concentrically gauge/tools from Brownells/Sinclair.Originally Posted by Doc Highwall
For $90+ bucks what the heck.....why not give it a try?.....the theory is sound.
The practice........we'll see.
I believe as Doc Highwall does that solving problems at the source is the best solution.
Why the heck are my hand loaded cartridges crooked in the first place? is the first question that should be asked.
I use Remington Core-Lokt 180 grain PSPs in my Ruger M77 All Weather .300 Win. Mag. because the gun "likes them". I'm getting on the shy side of 1 MOA with the Core-Lokts which is considered a tack driver for an out of the box Ruger.
That old gun has put down 11 moose so I can't argue with the results & like any Ruger it is built super strong & dependable & you can't break it.
I of course have no control on how the Remington factory ammo is manufactured & if I can run the factory cartridges through the tool & minimize run out and get those groups even smaller.....why not?
Last edited by pricedo; 09-02-2010 at 06:45 PM.
The basic theory of accuracy shooting is the more variables that you can eliminate & the more stuff you can get the same round to round to round the more accurate your ammo will be.
I don't think crooked cartridges are a good thing & if you can eliminate that variable why not do it?
This is a $90 dollar tool not a $200,000 MRI machine for Pete's sake.
One thing to remember if you size the necks down too much making the neck ID too small and then seat a bullet you will get more run out. It is very important even with turned necks that you have no more then .001"-.002" max with less being better.
Don't throw them away........they make great sinkers for bottom fishin Channel catfish.
I ran 5 boxes of Remington factory loads through my Hornady Concentricity Tool & only a couple were over my .002" run out red line.
I tested some .30-06 hand loads & found 3 that were over .002" & straightened them with the tool.
I do my run out measurement on the case neck of a loaded cartridge just behind the mouth on the suggestion of a friend & found it much easier to make corrections.
The acid test will be of course at the range when it will all come together, or rather they (the boolits) will all land closer together or they won't.
Last edited by pricedo; 09-03-2010 at 02:35 AM.
How to you measure bullet run-out at the case neck? I measure case neck runout prior to loading the bullet. I try to keep the case neck runout to .002" or less as this allows for the variance in neck thickness of unturned necks.
Then after loading the bullet I measure at the start of the ogive to see if the bullet is straight.
This is a perplexing operation. I have a 6.5TCU that I use Pacific standard dies to load and seldom get over .002" bullet runout and I just insert the bullet and pull the handle.
I'm using Hornady dies now on my 243 Win. and I have to insert the bullet a little, rotate, rotate, rotate. Then I still get up to .005" runout. Sometimes I think the bullets are the problem , but have not confirmed this yet.
What is desirable is that the longitudinal axis of the bullet be coincident (on the same line) with the longitudinal axis of the cartridge case & neck. A suitable force applied perpendicular to the case/neck axis on the case neck just behind the mouth & a perpendicular force applied on the bullet shank just short of where the shank meets the ogive will both correct situations where the axis of the bullet is not perfectly in line with the axis of the cartridge case & neck.
I found that corrections were more easily made on the case neck.
Cases & bullets are mass produced by the millions and in order to keep costs down limitations on dimension tolerances are a necessary evil.
I had to laugh at a guy on another forum who said he was loading cartridges with spitzer Nosler Partition bullets and had his cartridge head to tip COAL variation down to +/- .001". One look at the obvious differences in the exposed lead tips of Nosler Partition spitzer bullets exposes the fallacy in such a statement.
I'll see how my rationale proves out on the target paper at the range............the acid test where a lot of bright ideas pass or fail muster.
Last edited by pricedo; 09-03-2010 at 11:09 AM.
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