H&G130 bullets keyhole in 45ACP

[ecomm123]

At the center fire stage of a 2700 match last week end, I discovered that the some of recent batch of H&B130 bullets keyholed badly with accuracy so bad the missed the backer @ 50yds. To isolate the problem on the range, I saw that at 25yd, most of tyhe bullets were in the black, while 2 - 4 rounds would be wild shots ranging from 5s - to misses at the edge of the backer.

For the 45 stage of the match I switched to my other standard with 200 gr H&G#68. These worked normally. I shot a 824 out of 900 - which is in my normal range.

Now I am trying to figure what went wrong in my casting process. I pulled they remaining bullets. The only think I noticed was that on some of the bullets, the sprue cut was smeared, in some cases to the edge of the bullet.

I have shot this style of bullet before and they worked well.

What I am wondering is that enough to unbalance the bullet and cause to keyhole. If not what else can I check?.


Boolit Details:
Using Range lead in H&G #130, Hardness is 9 with Lee tester, Velocity 790 - 800 FPT, Sized in Lyman 450 lube sizer TO 451, Lube - Lyman black moly



All advice welcomed. Thanks Hank

[Dale53]

It appears from the picture that the bullets have irregular base edges. That will CERTAINLY cause bullets to keyhole.

The bases need to be flat and completely filled out with sharp edges. As Harry Pope stated, "The base is the steering end of the bullet."

What happens is that as the base of the bullet clears the crown of the barrel, gas escapes around the low edge of the bullet tipping the bullet.

Dale53

[Echo]

+1 for Dale53. I don't mean to be like this, but those are some ugly boolits. The bases should be sharp, and they aren't. It's almost like they were BB, sort of. If you have any more of those boolits, melt 'em down and recast, this time adding a little Sn to get them to fill out.

[casterofboolits]

+2 for Dale53. Bases need to be sharp and uniform for accuracy. The nose can be half ut away, but as long as the base is good, the boolit will shoot well.

[ecomm123]

Thanks Guys, I see what you mean. Some of the deformation of the bullets are from my inertial bullet puller, but some of the observed bevel base deformation seems to be from my Lyman.

I just looked at the actual bullets and on some I can see a clear deformation of the base. I am suspecting that I may have used the wrong top punch for the #130 which allowed the bullets to cant when entering the sizing die. I'll set up a test batch and see if I can replicate the keyholing #130 bullets vs accurate #130 bullets

I gather that you all do not think the smeared sprue cut is a big problem.

Hank

[HeavyMetal]

+1 on adding a little tin plus slow down a little bit and let the sprue harden more.

I will also suggest you check tension on the sprue plate itself, I've seen large sprues on boolit base's that were actually lumps because the plate "jumped" when the sprue was cut rather than cut smoothly!

Your keyholing is absolutely caused by a boolit base condition.

[gray wolf]

I would have thought / hoped--that those bullets were dug out of the burm

I wouldn't say ugly ---------But ugly comes to mind ( just ribbing a little )
Someone please post a pic of a well cast bullet --front, back,and side.
Also are you sure about that .451 sizing, just checking.

[pls1911]

An interesting side note. some where have a well cast RCBS RN which was a very early effort at casting. Dug from a clay bank and set next to a newly cast slug, the only difference was to engraving of the rifling, and a little sandblasting on the nose

[Paladin 56]

Wow. I've recovered Civil War musket balls in better condition. Just kidding.

Here is a photo of some reasonably cast .45 ACP that look to be an H&G #68 type bullet.

[Dale53]

Here's some of mine cast with an original H&G #130 four cavity mould:



Dale53

[captaint]

ecomm - I might loosen the spru plate a little and try sizing them .452. I might also add some tin to the mix. Make em look like Dale's boolits, then they'll shoot. Learning lasts forever, hopefully!! enjoy Mike

[ecomm123]

Thanks again for all the help. My original bullets were pulled from loaded cases and I notice that the black molylube and the fine TG powder was stuck to the lube seems to make the look really bad.

I've loaded 50 rounds from a new batch that look pretty good to my eyes. Here are some pics of bullets I just loaded for a test. . 2 examples of the lube/sized on the right and 3 examples of the unlubed bullets.

Here are some of my HG68 bullets: .

I shoot the HG68s a lot. I used them at Perry last month and they worked fine. Most times I could accurately call my shots.

I also like to shoot range lead - i.e., relatively soft lead. Since I have changed from "hard" commercial bullets, I have not experienced barrel leading. When I was shooting commercial hard bullets I would find my barrel leading up after only 90 shots.

Would appreciate any observations and thoughts on these.

Thanks Hank

[Bass Ackward]

I'm gonna be different. I don't think better bullet bases are going to help ya much.

How long you been shooting this lube load hardness combo? The H&G 68 carries less lube. Not sure that you aren't going to find that you still get purges with the 130s.

Sizing bigger might help, but I would look to another lube that is less slippery and doesn't have a propensity to build. The softer the bullet you make, the more excess lube is going to flub you up in a real smooth bore condition. Especially in hot weather where hydraulic sizing causes under bore sized bullets. Otherwise called a "lube purge".

[462]

Not being critical, but you might wait a bit longer before cutting the sprue, thereby eliminating the tearing. Refer to the boolit on the right in Paladin 56's picture.

[ecomm123]

I'm gonna be different. I don't think better bullet bases are going to help ya much.

How long you been shooting this lube load hardness combo? The H&G 68 carries less lube. Not sure that you aren't going to find that you still get purges with the 130s.

Sizing bigger might help, but I would look to another lube that is less slippery and doesn't have a propensity to build. The softer the bullet you make, the more excess lube is going to flub you up in a real smooth bore condition. Especially in hot weather where hydraulic sizing causes under bore sized bullets. Otherwise called a "lube purge".

Bass Ackward I think I understand you point. Let me restate in terms I understand - The Lyman black molylube is slick and, when hot, with these bullets the lube can extrude in the barrel. The extrusion can fill the lands and results in a smooth bore like condition - do I understand your point correctly.

I have been shooting this lube load hardness combo since I started casting last summer. All other time I used it it seemed to shoot fine - accurate and no leading. Thus I was very perplexed when I started missing a 24x24in backer at 50yds for a few shots out of every 10 round string. .

You recommended a "less slippery" lube. Which ones do you think best?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward I think I understand you point. Let me restate in terms I understand - The Lyman black molylube is slick and, when hot, with these bullets the lube can extrude in the barrel. The extrusion can fill the lands and results in a smooth bore like condition - do I understand your point correctly.

I have been shooting this lube load hardness combo since I started casting last summer. All other time I used it it seemed to shoot fine - accurate and no leading. Thus I was very perplexed when I started missing a 24x24in backer at 50yds for a few shots out of every 10 round string. .

You recommended a "less slippery" lube. Which ones do you think best?

Which lubes I think best won't get you across the street little alone a cup of coffee. It's what the gun thinks.

And you probably have other considerations like smoke etc. So I normally wouldn't recommend Alox which has no lubricating properties what so ever. But that is the easiest to try and see if you get different results. You can put your bullets in a freezer to harden your lube enough to put how ever many you want into a plastic bag and put a light coat over the other lube by needing the bag gently.

Don't pay attention to your groups. If that cuts your fliers, then you have identified the problem. Then I would spend some time in the Lube section to see what others in your situation are using as to what your mind picks as logical to try.

Just be patient. Cause the other guys might be right. Just that 800 fps and maybe 13,000 psi doesn't really call for heavy duty lube.

[Doby45]

Proverbial Group Shot



Finished Product



Unsized on the left and Sized on the right.



Boolit bases

[44man]

Even after tuning the casting to get perfect boolits, has anyone thought that the boolit might be too light with not enough bearing surface for the rifling?
Seems as if after going to a 200 gr boolit that Ecomm shot better.
I have had too many boolits key hole at 50 by just leaving off the gas checks thus reducing the drive area. With a gas check the boolit would shoot nickles at 100.
A big problem is trying to shoot stuff for zero recoil.

[Dale53]

As I mentioned, I have an original four cavity H&G mould for the #130 bullet. I have shot tens of thousands of those bullets at both target velocity and IPSC 180 power factor levels out of 1911's and S&W 625's. Properly alloyed, cast, and reloaded, those bullets just flat shoot. Just for the record, my favorite bullet for the .45 ACP is the #68 simply because it cuts a cleaner hole in the target.

Here are results (standing at 25 yards) that explain better than I can tell you:



Hundreds of competitors at Camp Perry have used the #130 bullet at the long line (50 yards) with near perfect match scores. It's not just my fantasy, this bullet shoots. I can't give you chapter and verse at it's performance beyond 50 yards except to say that I have shot it at 100 yards on steel with excellent results. It was designed for NRA Bullseye at 25 and 50 yards and it fulfills that perfectly well.

Regarding lube - I jumped on the NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube bandwagon soon after E.H. Harrison ran the most conclusive lube tests ever performed (to the best of my knowledge). His evidence was conclusive. I even mixed several gallons of that on my own (I had a good friend in industry who could get me pure Alox 2138F in gallon sizes - normally only available in a 50 gallon drum).

I got tired of making up my own lube, used a commercial version with the same, excellent, results. Then when I discovered Lars White Label Lubes I went for Lars Carnauba Red. It seems to have all the properties of NRA 50/50 but has a higher melting point. That is a useful property when I shoot in hot weather.

So, regarding lube, I can recommend, without reservation, either NRA 50/50 (available from Lars White Label, also as well as a number of commercial sources) or his Carnauba Red. Lars prices are quite reasonable (scroll down to the bottom of the page "Lar45's LsStuff).

Since I received my MiHec #68 Clone mould, that is the bullet I shoot. However, every now and then I run a few thousand #130's because I KNOW that the performance is there also (in the 1911 platform as well as my 625s).

The above comments are not in any rate to be a diatribe against anyone else's opinion, "I'm just sayin"... If you need NRA Bullseye performance levels at distances of up to and including 50 yards, then there is NOTHING wrong with the #130 bullet.

P.S.
Doby45;
Those are excellent pictures of EXCELLENT bullets!

Dale53

[44man]

As I mentioned, I have an original four cavity H&G mould for the #130 bullet. I have shot tens of thousands of those bullets at both target velocity and IPSC 180 power factor levels out of 1911's and S&W 625's. Properly alloyed, cast, and reloaded, those bullets just flat shoot. Just for the record, my favorite bullet for the .45 ACP is the #68 simply because it cuts a cleaner hole in the target.

Here are results (standing at 25 yards) that explain better than I can tell you:



Hundreds of competitors at Camp Perry have used the #130 bullet at the long line (50 yards) with near perfect match scores. It's not just my fantasy, this bullet shoots. I can't give you chapter and verse at it's performance beyond 50 yards except to say that I have shot it at 100 yards on steel with excellent results. It was designed for NRA Bullseye at 25 and 50 yards and it fulfills that perfectly well.

Regarding lube - I jumped on the NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube bandwagon soon after E.H. Harrison ran the most conclusive lube tests ever performed (to the best of my knowledge). His evidence was conclusive. I even mixed several gallons of that on my own (I had a good friend in industry who could get me pure Alox 2138F in gallon sizes - normally only available in a 50 gallon drum).

I got tired of making up my own lube, used a commercial version with the same, excellent, results. Then when I discovered Lars White Label Lubes I went for Lars Carnauba Red. It seems to have all the properties of NRA 50/50 but has a higher melting point. That is a useful property when I shoot in hot weather.

So, regarding lube, I can recommend, without reservation, either NRA 50/50 (available from Lars White Label, also as well as a number of commercial sources) or his Carnauba Red. Lars prices are quite reasonable (scroll down to the bottom of the page "Lar45's LsStuff).

Since I received my MiHec #68 Clone mould, that is the bullet I shoot. However, every now and then I run a few thousand #130's because I KNOW that the performance is there also (in the 1911 platform as well as my 625s).

The above comments are not in any rate to be a diatribe against anyone else's opinion, "I'm just sayin"... If you need NRA Bullseye performance levels at distances of up to and including 50 yards, then there is NOTHING wrong with the #130 bullet.

P.S.
Doby45;
Those are excellent pictures of EXCELLENT bullets!

Dale53

What you didn't explain is does every .45 have the same barrel and twist.