45 ACP load tuning

[BeeMan]

Need a bit of help here tuning 1911 45 ACP hand loads. Rifles and revolvers are a comfort zone, but the idiosyncrasies of bottom feeders are confusing me (not hard to do at times.) Pardon the length as I provide some background.

The first challenge was achieving a uniform crimp from the seater die without making a burr on the case mouth. Even the slight variation in case length raised a burr that caused chambering difficulty and ultimately several stoppages due to not going into battery. That was solved when Hornady supplied a separate taper crimp die at no charge. Thanks Hornady!

First up up was a couple different charges of 231 (5.2 to 5.6 gr.), a Berry plated 200 gr. TC, at 1.185 COL. COL is set to chamber about flush to .005 below the end of the barrel and taper crimped to just straighten the case mouth. These fed 100% but ejected cases landed over a several foot circle and accuracy was a bit less than Winchester whitebox 230 FMJ. The 5.2 load might have been a shade more accurate. I wanted better even though I’m still learning and breaking in the 1911.

A mid range load of TiteGroup (4.9 gr), should have been more velocity (and slide energy) than the 5.2 231 load. Group size was a bit tighter. Cases clustered in a tight 18 inch circle about 2 feet closer. BUT, a third of the rounds failed to chamber even though OAL, crimp, case, bullet, were identical to the 231 load. These were 100% tested in the barrel on the bench at the same time as the 231 loads.

My thinking is despite the load books, 4.9 grains of Titegroup is marginally light. I'm looking for ideas and suggestions to load up in the cool indoors, rather than just load up and roast at 100 degrees to randomly discover what makes the 1911 tick.

Comments on a good first mold are also appreciated. I’m leaning toward a H&G 68 clone, but if a 230 gr. design will make it easier to find an accuracy / target load I’m open.

One more point, the Winchester white box is 100% reliable on feed, fire, ejection, and accuracy is better than I’m holding. The Para GI Expert likes it and so far I really like the GI Expert.

BeeMan

[Moonie]

Use your barrel as a chamber guage, remove the barrel and check the loaded cartridges. I seat to the point that the rim is flush with the hood of the barrel. This way it doesn't need to headspace off the front of the cartridge as well, which can be a bonus because brass is rarely as long as your chamber in a 45 acp.

[BeeMan]

I've already done that

<...1.185 COL. COL is set to chamber about flush to .005 below the end of the barrel and taper crimped to just straighten the case mouth...were 100% tested in the barrel on the bench at the same time as the 231 loads. >

All assembled cartridges for all 3 loads were tested in the barrel. The only difference is powder type and charge weight.

Asking a bit differently:
Why are 45 ACP cartridges with a charge of TiteGroup with book velocity between the book velocity for two different 231 charge weights failing to chamber, when both 231 charge weights function perfectly?

Anyone have any similar experience with TiteGroup in 45 ACP?

BeeMan

[MtGun44]

I have fired tens of thousands of 4.8 TG under a 200 LSWC in numerous different 1911s with
100% reliability. 1.185 seems extremely short. My H&G 68 loads run at 1.260, but yours
may have a shorter nose. Seat them farther out until they start hitting the throat with the
full diam portion and you cannot get them to seat properly.

Also add a touch more of TC. About 85% of the jamming I see with newbies in the 1911
are due to inadequate TC. I normally recommend that the TC increase be the first thing to
try, but your short LOA seems like maybe an issue, altho I have no experience with that
boolit and it may be very short nosed.

Bill

[BeeMan]

MtGun44,

Thanks for the response; maybe you can help me sort this out.

This

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14...200_GR_FP.aspx

is the bullet I'm loading until I can decide on and get a mold. The H&G 68 is what I'll leaning towards.

The 1.185 COL is with this bullet seated out as far possible while keeping the case head flush to .005 inch below the barrel hood. I'm touching the rifling with the bullet now.

The short nose affecting feed into the chamber would make sense except that dimensionally identical rounds loaded with 231 function perfectly.

My knowledge of 1911s is slim but how can feeding of otherwise identical rounds be affected by the powder type, provided that velocity and pressure are appropriate?

The cartridge makes it about 1/3 the length of the case into the chamber. This happened randomly with rounds from the top, middle, and bottom of the magazine, but only with the TiteGroup load.

What am I missing?

Edit to add: I'm not sure this barrel has what you'd call a throat. When I seat a bullet at 1.200 and press it in hard, the rifling leaves witness marks on the full diameter of the bullet.

BeeMan

[KYCaster]

Give us a better description of the jam. Is the slide closing on the side of the case? Bullet nose against the top of the chamber and the case doesn't slide up the breach face? Cartridge parallel to chamber but slide doesn't close completely?

Can you push on the back of the slide and get it to chamber completely? If you pull back very slightly on the slide then release it will it chamber completely?

Pics would help a lot.

Jerry

[BeeMan]

Bullet nose against the top of the chamber and the case doesn't slide up the breach face?
- This. The bullet and about 1/3 of the length of the brass were inside the chamber. The cartridge head was still well down the breach face.

If you pull back very slightly on the slide then release it will it chamber completely?
- I tried this on the first couple jams with no success. From then on I dropped the magazine, pulled the slide back, and dropped the cartridge out. Loading the same cartridge back in the magazine and racking the slide resumed normal operation for a few rounds and then it would jam again.

Can you push on the back of the slide and get it to chamber completely?
- Did not try this. The angle of the cartridge to the chamber looked like too much to 'turn the corner' without damaging a loaded round.

I'll load up a few more and take pics at the range this weekend.

This is more about me learning how a 1911 and ammo work together than just finding a load that works. Thanks for the diagnostic help.

BeeMan

[btroj]

I just got my first 1911 for fathers day. Been reloading and casting for 25 years and it was a learning experience. Compared to loading for a revolver or rifle it was a much pickier gun to load for.
Mine wants a firm taper crimp or the slide won't close fully every time.
One thing for sure- I have a few loads that seem to shoot well and function well. I won't be messing with success.
Read up on loading for this particular gun and don't be afraid to try different things. When you find the right combination your gun will let you know- mine sure did.

[BD]

My guess would be that you have somehow introduced a variation in addition to the powder difference in the course of loading. 1.185 is also a very short OAL. It sounds like you may have a barrel that didn't get throated.

I shot Berry's over Titegroup for a couple of years at an indoor range which didn't allow necked cast boolits. My load was the Berry's 200 grain RNFP over 5.0 grains of Titegroup seated to 1.225 COAL. I burned 16 pounds of Titegroup with that load.

Two problems I found that are particular to Berry's plated bullets. The first is that it's difficult to seat and taper crimp in one operation without shaving up a small sliver of the plating. I got around that by using the Lee FCD in a separate station. If you go that route be sure to check out the FCD die when you first get it. There has been some variation in the carbide ring ID, and an ID that's too small will cause more problems than it will solve. The second issue is that the plating will build up on the feed ramp over time. IMHO the plating is softer, and "stickier" than a gliding metal jacket and the corner of each round leaves a little on the feed ramp where it hits on the way up. That's why I used the RNFP rather than the TC design. The RNFP hits the ramp more on the curve of the ogive while the TC design hits on the corner of the meplat. You can smooth up the feed ramp a bit but be sure you understand what you are doing before you start, and be careful, if you move the ramp forward at all you've got trouble.

BD

[Edubya]

The WW230 COL measures 1.270" and your having problems loading a 200 grain TC?
I dunno why but I found that my OEM magazines would give me some trouble if I put eight rounds in them. I called Checkmate and they offered to replace them for free. I told them that I'd like that but I didn't want to be without magazines for my brand new gun so they offered to sell me four at a special price. I gave them my CC# and they sent the mags. After I got them and tried them out I sent my OEM's to them and they replaced them for free. They never even charged me shipping for any of them.

EW

[KYCaster]

Need a bit of help here tuning 1911 45 ACP hand loads. Rifles and revolvers are a comfort zone, but the idiosyncrasies of bottom feeders are confusing me (not hard to do at times.) Pardon the length as I provide some background.

The first challenge was achieving a uniform crimp from the seater die without making a burr on the case mouth. Even the slight variation in case length raised a burr that caused chambering difficulty and ultimately several stoppages due to not going into battery. That was solved when Hornady supplied a separate taper crimp die at no charge. Thanks Hornady!

First up up was a couple different charges of 231 (5.2 to 5.6 gr.), a Berry plated 200 gr. TC, at 1.185 COL. COL is set to chamber about flush to .005 below the end of the barrel and taper crimped to just straighten the case mouth. These fed 100% but ejected cases landed over a several foot circle and accuracy was a bit less than Winchester whitebox 230 FMJ. The 5.2 load might have been a shade more accurate. I wanted better even though I’m still learning and breaking in the 1911.

A mid range load of TiteGroup (4.9 gr), should have been more velocity (and slide energy) than the 5.2 231 load. Group size was a bit tighter. Cases clustered in a tight 18 inch circle about 2 feet closer. BUT, a third of the rounds failed to chamber even though OAL, crimp, case, bullet, were identical to the 231 load. These were 100% tested in the barrel on the bench at the same time as the 231 loads.

My thinking is despite the load books, 4.9 grains of Titegroup is marginally light. I'm looking for ideas and suggestions to load up in the cool indoors, rather than just load up and roast at 100 degrees to randomly discover what makes the 1911 tick. I think you're on the right track here. Work up to a hotter load and see what happens.

Comments on a good first mold are also appreciated. I’m leaning toward a H&G 68 clone, but if a 230 gr. design will make it easier to find an accuracy / target load I’m open.

One more point, the Winchester white box is 100% reliable on feed, fire, ejection, and accuracy is better than I’m holding. The Para GI Expert likes it and so far I really like the GI Expert.

BeeMan

Weak magazine springs could be a factor, but if it works with the 231 loads there's no reason to suspect anything other than the power factor.

Be aware that TiteGroup has a weird temperature sensitivity. It burns faster in cold weather, slower in the heat, so if you work up to max loads in the summer they could cause pressure problems in the winter.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

I read all of these threads where folks seem to have problems reloading the 45 ACP round for the 1911 and other autopistols. I just sorta scratch my head ,as loading this round is very simple and trouble free, if a few basics are followed.

First of all, let me say I don't shoot store bought bullets or Tightgroup powder. I have loaded and fired at least 1/4 million rounds of handloads through various 1911 pistols over the past 50 years. Here is what I learned.

For target loads H&G 68 (200 SWC) or a clone is a good bullet. Lyman 452460 (215 SWC) is another great bullet. Both of the bullets will feed through amost any pistol including box stock GIs and their accuracy has been proven for generations in Bullseye shooting competition. There is no need to try anything else.

Faster powder like Bullseye or 231 are just the ticket for these powders. Keep the loads mild and you will be rewarded with good accuracy. Winter, summer, indoors or out, makes no difference. Just load, shoot and watch your scores improve. Time is better spent shooting rather than monkeying around with loading issues.

Both of these bullet also make good field loads when the velocities are kicked up to the 800-900 fps range. Unique is the powder for this work. These bullets hold up their accuracy at these speeds quite well.

There are various 230 grain bullets out there, but in terms of accuracy there is nothing to be gained over the above two.

Don't even think about not putting a taper crimp on the loaded round. Here is how you adjust the TC die.

1. Place a loaded GI or factory round in the press ram and run it up to it's full height.
2. Screw the TC die down on the round as far as you can get it with you hand. Don't use a tool!
3. Now set the die lock ring and you are good to go.

I much prefer to seat bullets and taper crimp in two seperate operations.

I use ACWW and a good soft lube that requires no heat.

That is about all there is to it. You can train a monkey to do this in about 20 minutes. Handloding issues should disappear quickly.

There are lots of other ways to load the 45 ACP round, but the above is basic 101. It is where the newbies started and the experts ended several generations ago and it is still good today.

[HeavyMetal]

Have you tried different mag in this gun?

Sometimes "release" points vary from mag design to mag design. Think I'd borrow a couple different mag type and or brands and try them out.

[nicholst55]

I'm inclined to agree with the suggestion that you bump your load of TiteGroup up just a tad, and see if that doesn't solve the problem. I also think that your OAL is a bit short, so maybe try changing that first.

I would set my taper crimp die to an OD of .473" on a loaded cartridge; this is what Dillon recommends, and the measurement comes straight out of the Lyman manual (verify that measurement, because I'm 8,000 miles away from my reloading gear). I used that dimension when I set up my 550B, and it has worked well for me.

It's also very hard to argue with the loads that Chargar suggested. I, too, have been loading .45 ACP for a few years (not quite 50 - only about 34), but I have found the .45 ACP to be an easy cartridge to load for successfully. I have difficulty imagining why so many people experience so many problems. Maybe I've just been lucky all these years.

[Mk42gunner]

I read all of these threads where folks seem to have problems reloading the 45 ACP round for the 1911 and other autopistols. I just sorta scratch my head ,as loading this round is very simple and trouble free, if a few basics are followed.

First of all, let me say I don't shoot store bought bullets or Tightgroup powder. I have loaded and fired at least 1/4 million rounds of handloads through various 1911 pistols over the past 50 years. Here is what I learned.

For target loads H&G 68 (200 SWC) or a clone is a good bullet. Lyman 452460 (215 SWC) is another great bullet. Both of the bullets will feed through amost any pistol including box stock GIs and their accuracy has been proven for generations in Bullseye shooting competition. There is no need to try anything else.

Faster powder like Bullseye or 231 are just the ticket for these powders. Keep the loads mild and you will be rewarded with good accuracy. Winter, summer, indoors or out, makes no difference. Just load, shoot and watch your scores improve. Time is better spent shooting rather than monkeying around with loading issues.

Both of these bullet also make good field loads when the velocities are kicked up to the 800-900 fps range. Unique is the powder for this work. These bullets hold up their accuracy at these speeds quite well.

There are various 230 grain bullets out there, but in terms of accuracy there is nothing to be gained over the above two.

Don't even think about not putting a taper crimp on the loaded round. Here is how you adjust the TC die.

1. Place a loaded GI or factory round in the press ram and run it up to it's full height.
2. Screw the TC die down on the round as far as you can get it with you hand. Don't use a tool!
3. Now set the die lock ring and you are good to go.

I much prefer to seat bullets and taper crimp in two seperate operations.

I use ACWW and a good soft lube that requires no heat.

That is about all there is to it. You can train a monkey to do this in about 20 minutes. Handloding issues should disappear quickly.

There are lots of other ways to load the 45 ACP round, but the above is basic 101. It is where the newbies started and the experts ended several generations ago and it is still good today.

While I haven't been loading the .45 as long, nor as many rounds as Chargar has; what he says makes a lot of sence.

Before I started casting my own, several thousand commercial hardcast 185 and 200 gr SWC (a few thousand of 230gr RN also), went downrange in front of an appropriate charge of 231. It was the first powder I tried, it worked, metered well and was fairly clean burning.

It always seemed to me that the 200 grainers shot to the sights better than the 185's.

Since I started casting, the first mold I found for the .45 ACP was the Lyman 452460; it works, I haven't looked for another.

Setting the taper crimp die by using a factory round is a very good idea for semi autos.


Robert

[Char-Gar]

I am certain that others have mentioned this, but determining the seating depth of the bullet and OAL of the round is quite easy. You use the barrel as a gage. You seat the bullet until the head of the case is flush with the back edge of the barrel hood. A straight edge accross the case head is a good help.

Try a few such round through the magazine for funtion, and then lock the die ring and have at it.

As I said, the 45 ACP is a very easy round to load and should not cause all of the angst it seems to cause.

[Groo]

Groo here
May sound strange try try more crimp, also check to see if your bullet is out all the way.
Drop bullet in chamber,measure to hood from base [end of barrel projection]
then remove bullet and measure length- add for over all length.
If this will fit your mag that should be a good start.

[BeeMan]

Reporting back:

- Confirmed COAL to touch the rifling with bullet and have the case head flush with the barrel hood to 0.005 below. The original report of 1.185 is correct for the Berry 200 gr TC bullet profile in this barrel.

- Confirmed taper crimp die adjustment with factory round and by measuring a loaded cartridge. No change from original die set up or the dummy round I saved for set up.

- Every round is checked in the barrel. Again same as last time.

- Barrel throat has a beveled edges on the lands, as described in PMs.

- No chamber fouling or throat leading is present to interfere with final chambering of the cartridge. There was a bit of plating color on the feed ramp so BD's comment about sticky plating on Berry's bullets may apply.

- The Berry 200 gr TC HP gives a slightly longer COAL when head spaced on the bullet.

- 50 rounds of TC and TCHP loads were fired by alternating magazines of each. The HP rounds all fed fine. There were 1 to 3 failures to chamber for each magazine of the plain TC loads.

- Most FTFs were resolved by either bumping the back of the slide or partly retracting and releasing it.

Conclusion: the Berry 200 TC plated bullet is right on the ragged edge of COAL and bullet shape to feed in this pistol.

Result: rusty pistol skills started coming around even while I sorted this out. Time to load a few hundred more Berry's HPs while I get a mold on the way...

It's all simple to understand once you've learned it. Thanks for the help up the steep part of the curve.

BeeMan

[bobke]

i just shot my first idpa match two weekends ago and experienced almost exactly the identical 'triple bind' you've discussed here. gunsmith in san antonio with experience in this regard called yesterday to say it'd been addressed by recontouring ramp slightly and adjusting extractor tension and changing a bit of the hook in same. we'll see, but i'm hopeful.

everyone at the range that first weekend who witnessed these failures had a thought or two-springs, taper crimp, extractor, link tolerance/fit, ramp, etc. they shot it with their always reliable reloads using 4.8 wst and 200 swc and all had the same failure i had. bullet about a third into chamber, next round pushing up against it and only fix was dump clip, eject round and try over again. helluva frustrating day, but lots of fun nonetheless. i'm going back for more, with better prep for the event next go round.

gunsmith pointed out that it's not always a singular problem that is the fix-often a combination of factors. as all above have stated, get the ammo issue worked out and eliminate that as a variable and that might point to issues with the gun that could easily be addressed. i'll report back how mine turned out this weekend.

[gray wolf]

and adjusting extractor tension and changing a bit of the hook in same. we'll see, but i'm hopeful.

Extractor tension has more to do with feeding than most people realize.
Not enough and you will have extraction problems, to much and the round can't slide up the breach face. There are many band aids for an extractor problem. But the best fix is proper tension on the hook. ( A LITTLE GOES A LONG WAY )
If the tension is borderline and you get a case with a little thicker rim it can not ride up the breach face. Also the breach face should be smooth, not polished but smooth.

Sam