45 caliber Air Rifle

[Butcher45]

Who are the other domestic big bore manufacturers?

Dennis Quackenbush (good luck getting on that list....can take 5 years before you get lucky enough, if you get lucky enough).

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

Gary Barnes (the airgun version of the fantasy knife.......very long wait and VERY SPENDY!).

http://www.glbarnes.com/index2.html

There are one or two others, but the quality has either proven to be.....uhmmm.....let's say "non-existent", or has yet to be proven.

The guy producing the Gargoyle is very serious about meeting the demand.

[SharpsShooter]

Here is a airgun specific design I did for the 50 caliber Dragonslayer.


Very accurate



SS

[JIMinPHX]

Here is a airgun specific design I did for the 50 caliber Dragonslayer.


Very accurate

Is that just a plain flat base?

[HollowPoint]

I finally got a chance to take this Air Rifle apart this morning. I went as far as I could before running into an issue of not having the right screw driver to remove the main valve.

I took a few pics but I'll have to run them through my photo editing software in order to make them presentable.

Once you have it apart and laying in pieces on your work bench it's easy to see that this is not a complicated gun.

While I had it apart I slugged the barrel. Boy, you guys weren't kidding when you said this air rifle had real shallow rifling. I used a lead fishing sinker that slugged out to .455.5.

I guess I'll try some projectiles in the .457 range after I've used up the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try.

I'll try to post those pics a little later.

HollowPoint

[SharpsShooter]

Is that just a plain flat base?

Yes it is. Notice the narrow driving bands. The idea was to reduce the friction coefficient but yet still have enough to impart spin via the rifling. .

SS

[SharpsShooter]

I used a lead fishing sinker that slugged out to .455.5.

I guess I'll try some projectiles in the .457 range after I've used up the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try.

I'll try to post those pics a little later.

HollowPoint

If you use 457" in a .455 airgun bore keep in mind that it is easy to stick a pellet due to the lack of propellant energy. We have found that bore diameter is perfect and recovered slugs did bump up slightly. The increased friction of an oversize slug is a handicap to velocity.


SS

[HollowPoint]

SharpShooter:

If you haven't already, take a look at post 29 and 30. These are some test bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try out.

They measure .4535 and they are a little harder that straight stick-on wheel weights. In your estimation, and due to the fact that they have the tail ends hollowed out, do you think they'll bump-up to form a tight seal and get a good spin going while still not imparting too much drag?

I'm going to shoot them either way. I was just wondering since these air rifles just put out a set amount of air pressure and no more, it seems like an absolute balance between BHN, Drag in the bore and bullet weight in order to get consistent fps and fpe is imperative. At least that's what it seem like from reading some of the post I've come across.

I don't want it to get to the point where it becomes drudgery. I bought it to have fun with it. I figured I'd try to track down one light weight bullet and one not-so-light just to have most of my bases covered.

As I stated before, I just bought this gun to hunt coyotes if the AZ game and fish dept. will make that legal; otherwise it will be strictly a rabbit and target gun.

I won't worry about hunting anything bigger than that or shooting heavy bullets until long after I've become more acquainted with this PCP.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Yes it is. Notice the narrow driving bands. The idea was to reduce the friction coefficient but yet still have enough to impart spin via the rifling. .

SS

That's the way to do it with the air rifle slugs. Narrow driving bands allow harder alloys to more easily maintain their velocities. That's why most firearm designs shoot best when cast in very, very soft lead: less drag on most boolits over-abundance of contact area.

That's why I've always been fascinated with the EPP/UG design. El Paso Pete probably didn't even know .45caliber airguns even existed, yet the EPP/UG looks just like an airgun specific, tailor-made lightweight airgun projectile to me.

I would like to see a longer EPP/UG, with the lube-groove made shallow for extra weight, with a good-sized meplat on it.

We need to get about 15-20 boolit casters with 909 guns together, and start putting on some very interesting group buys. These projectiles are in the pioneering stage....quite an opportunity.

I finally got a chance to take this Air Rifle apart this morning. I went as far as I could before running into an issue of not having the right screw driver to remove the main valve.

I took a few pics but I'll have to run them through my photo editing software in order to make them presentable.

Once you have it apart and laying in pieces on your work bench it's easy to see that this is not a complicated gun.

While I had it apart I slugged the barrel. Boy, you guys weren't kidding when you said this air rifle had real shallow rifling. I used a lead fishing sinker that slugged out to .455.5.

I guess I'll try some projectiles in the .457 range after I've used up the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try.

I'll try to post those pics a little later.

HollowPoint

Yea, down to the valve is as far as I have gotten on mine, too.

While you have it torn down, get some pure silicone grease (from a dive shop) and lightly go over the o-rings. I hear the factory tends to send them out dry, resulting in shorter o-ring life. Especially the o-rings in the breech, as it should help them bump-up under pressure.

It's a beautifully basic rifle, isn't it? I dare say the design reminds of the pure simplicity, and functionality if the Colt 1911A1. Even Gary Barnes has recently began emulating the breech-sleeve design....incorporating it into his own air rifles.

Did you happen to notice a choke at the end of your muzzle? I've always wanted to slug my barrel both all the way thru from the breech out the muzzle, and also from the breech, half-way up the barrel, and back out the breech again to establish the difference between the choke and the rest of the barrel. Just haven't gotten around to that yet. I always thought it was around .4555-.456 due to that size boolit performing so well in them.

.457 roundball and boolits work great in mine. I suggest shooting the .457 roundball with a 3000psi fill first, to establish a baseline. Then try 2900psi, then 2800psi, etc on the following strings. This is where the chrony testing is important to make the best use of your air (especially hard-earned hand-pump air hahaha), the best accuracy, and the best velocity thru-out your shot string. Sometimes just 50psi difference in fill pressure can make a respectable difference.

.457 roundball almost always shoots well. Not the absolute best accuracy, but decent, and a great baseline for accuracy comparison at 50 yards. If your boolits don't group as good or better than your roundball, then the search for the ideal boolit continues!

[Butcher45]

If you use 457" in a .455 airgun bore keep in mind that it is easy to stick a pellet due to the lack of propellant energy.
SS

Not in a 909 barrel. Not unless the boolit is WAY harder than necessary.

I'd agree that's possible/probable if we were talking about a different type of airgun barrel that has relatively deep rifling, but I have shot PLENTY of .457-.458/un-sized stuff anywhere from pure lead to 50/50 WW-PB to 20:1 thru my tuned 909, and also my buddies stock 909. NEVER in several thousand rounds have I stuck a boolit. Get much harder than wheel-weight in alloy, then it might be a different story...... I've never bothered with anything much harder than BHN10 or so.

I did technically stick one, but it was from the valve mal-functioning due to having neglected it in the Oklahoma humidity (bad rust/corrosion). That boolit was BHN9-10 or so, and sized .454 so diameter obviously wasn't a factor. I just cocked the rifle and shot again to clear it.

HollowPoint, do you have the single airtube, or the 2tube version?

[SharpsShooter]

Not in a 909 barrel. Not unless the boolit is WAY harder than necessary.

I'd agree that's possible/probable if we were talking about a different type of airgun barrel that has relatively deep rifling, but I have shot PLENTY of .457-.458/un-sized stuff anywhere from pure lead to 50/50 WW-PB to 20:1 thru my tuned 909, and also my buddies stock 909. NEVER in several thousand rounds have I stuck a boolit. Get much harder than wheel-weight in alloy, then it might be a different story...... I've never bothered with anything much harder than BHN10 or so.

I did technically stick one, but it was from the valve mal-functioning due to having neglected it in the Oklahoma humidity (bad rust/corrosion). That boolit was BHN9-10 or so, and sized .454 so diameter obviously wasn't a factor. I just cocked the rifle and shot again to clear it.

HollowPoint, do you have the single airtube, or the 2tube version?

My concern was directly related possibility of him purchasing like Laser Cast or other hard cast commercial product. Fodder of that sort is not a good idea.


SS

[Butcher45]

My concern was directly related possibility of him purchasing like Laser Cast or other hard cast commercial product. Fodder of that sort is not a good idea.


SS

Yea any harder than BHN 10 or so seems to completely un-necessary.

MelloRoadman actually went and got a BHN tester, gathered a few different types of alloy, and did some fairly comprehensive testing on the effects of several different alloy combinations/hardnesses in increments of about 3BHN, and the affect boolit hardness had on velocity. I think he got up to around BHN22 before getting boolits stuck in one of his barrels, which was pretty much one of the end-goals of his testing (how hard a boolit can be shot without getting it stuck in the barrel?). He was prepared with what he needed to get it out. I think he has done this type of testing with three different air rifles/calibers..........good info to have.

Maybe MelloRoadman will share that testing with us here on the forum. It's very interesting stuff.

We airgunners have only 3000-4000psi of pressure to work with, compared to a "powder-burners'" (as us airgunners call firearms) 10's of thousands of psi. I'm just amazed at what 3800-4000psi can do out of a Gargoyle. In comparison, a .45Colt would have to be considered a "fairly warm" load to equal a Gargoyle using the extra power valve shooting those 360 grain slugs at around 875+fps! Seems like Elk hunting territory to me. Using a 360grain boolit with a fat meplat, and taking a broadside heart/lung shot at under 50 yards......wouldn't that do the trick?

[HollowPoint]

I tried to make my photos of this dismantling project as presentable as possible but, I made the mistake of taking these photos of black gun parts on top of a white work bench.

The "white balance" on my camera was way off so rather than spending alot of time trying to salvage mediocre images I just deleted most of them.

I did manage to tweek the two photos I took of the shallow rifling. Hardly the greatest images but it gives you an idea what was meant when it was referred to a "shallow."

[Butcher45]

Nice shot of the rifling!

I have a feeling that barrel life on these bigbores is going to be pretty darn long, shooting these relatively soft alloys at sub-sonic velocities and all. I've got 3000+ rounds through my 909 barrel, and only clean the barrel once in a blue moon when I happen to be taking the rifle apart. The barrel is holding up well.

[JIMinPHX]

I finally got a chance to take this Air Rifle apart this morning. I went as far as I could before running into an issue of not having the right screw driver to remove the main valve.

What kind do you need? I have a pretty good selection in the shop.

Also, if you need some of the silicone grease that butcher45 was talking about, I have some. Mine came from Grainger. Off the top of my head, I think that it is Dow Corning #111. Whatever it is, it's the exact stuff that Luxfer recommends for use on their scuba tank O-rings. I got it back when I was used to do scuba tank inspections.

[SharpsShooter]

Yea any harder than BHN 10 or so seems to completely un-necessary.

MelloRoadman actually went and got a BHN tester, gathered a few different types of alloy, and did some fairly comprehensive testing on the effects of several different alloy combinations/hardnesses in increments of about 3BHN, and the affect boolit hardness had on velocity. I think he got up to around BHN22 before getting boolits stuck in one of his barrels,

I'm surprised he made it to 22BNH without a stoppage



Maybe MelloRoadman will share that testing with us here on the forum. It's very interesting stuff.

Yes it would be interesting, but only if he used the same boolit design, throughout the testing of each caliber



We airgunners have only 3000-4000psi of pressure to work with, compared to a "powder-burners'" (as us airgunners call firearms) 10's of thousands of psi. I'm just amazed at what 3800-4000psi can do out of a Gargoyle. In comparison, a .45Colt would have to be considered a "fairly warm" load to equal a Gargoyle using the extra power valve shooting those 360 grain slugs at around 875+fps! Seems like Elk hunting territory to me. Using a 360grain boolit with a fat meplat, and taking a broadside heart/lung shot at under 50 yards......wouldn't that do the trick?

I continue to be amazed at the capability of these myself with regard to both accuracy and energy. The Gargoyle has taken one whitetail deer at this point and it was dead right there with no tracking required Elk should be no issue as I have read of buff being taken and even some africa plains game



SS

[Butcher45]

My friend took part in the first Missouri airgun deer season with his Gargoyle....shot a doe with a 205grain Devastator and she made it only 20 yards or so before dropping. Boolit expanded to around .75 caliber, and was found just under the hide on the off-side. He also used the same boolit to put down another doe that was caught in a fence, and it worked well then, too.

[Grapeshot]

Hey, I just bought a new Korean .45 caliber air rifle. My reason for posting here is to ask some of you more experienced bullet designer guys for some input on an optimum bullet design and weight for this rig.

For those of you who might be inclined to offer up suggestions regarding a good bullet for this set up, could you also offer up some suggestions for optimum .44 bullet shapes and sizes.

Thanks
HollowPoint

I suggest that you invest in a bullet swaging set up to make some hollow based bullets of various weights. With a swaging die and various nose and base punches you could tailor your round to the game you plan to play.

[Butcher45]

I suggest that you invest in a bullet swaging set up to make some hollow based bullets of various weights. With a swaging die and various nose and base punches you could tailor your round to the game you plan to play.

The swaged BuffaloBulletCompany Black Powder Pistol Boolits have a very shallow base with a short, thin "skirt", and shoot well out of my 909.

As for the truer hollow-based designs, I've seen and heard more bad-luck stories than good. From what I understand, swaging might make it tougher to keep the boolit-to-barrel contact area to a minimum.

[HollowPoint]

Hi guys:

Jim; The reason I had to stop dismantling when I did was because in order to remove the main valve I'd need a straight-slot screw driver about 28" long with a tip about 3/4" wide.

Actually the nut that holds the butt in place is the same size but I had a screw driver long enough for that part.

I don't plan on taking it apart again until after I've shot it a few times. Also, I noticed that there was plenty of grease in the air tube itself but the rubber o-rings didn't have much of anything on them. I'll have to tend to that the next time I have it apart.

GrapeShot; A swaging set up would be awsome but, right now I'm just trying to scrape up some spending money to buy a Hand Pump. I'm thinking that a couple of appropriately sized bullet molds would be much easier and cheaper to obtain.

Everything is slowly coming along. I'm trying not to get ahead of myself with this new toy. I should have my Hand Pump by the end of next week, I've got some test bullets and a bunch of Devastator home made bullets ready to go.

Right now I'm getting ready to order one of those forster fill probe adapters and the corresponding female quick connect fitting.

Before I take it out for the first time I plan on changing out the existing iron sights to a set of peep sights. Without this change I might as well not even waste my time.

My eyes are such that I require peep sights just to be able to see the sights. Peep sights help increase my depth of field. I have a few scopes lying around but, since this is mainly a close up hunting rifle I want to keep it as bare-bones as possible.

HollowPoint

[JIMinPHX]

Hi guys:

Jim; The reason I had to stop dismantling when I did was because in order to remove the main valve I'd need a straight-slot screw driver about 28" long with a tip about 3/4" wide.

I can rig that up. Let me know when you're ready & I'll cut one for you. I'd love to see a picture of that thing from the inside.

Also, I sent an envelope out to you today with the transfer adhesive we discussed & a small plastic bag with some of that Dow Corning #111 silicone lube for your O-rings.