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Thread: 444 marlin brass for 410 brass shotshells

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    I got part two of the Handloader with the loading brass shot shells, some where I missed Part one.

    Jerry
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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    Jerry
    There was no load data in part one. It was a history of metallic shotshells and the tools used to load them. I will quote the "teasers" from the article......"There are components galore for loading brass shells with either black or smokeless powder" and "When it comes to tools available to assist the reloader in loading brass shells, there are two."
    John

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Ok,

    Finally got back to this project. Went with the 12.4 gr of blue dot as JMH suggested, as I have that on hand. I'm using the Federal 410 wad, with a half ounce of 8.5 shot

    All went bang, all seemed consistant. No bloopers. The cases fireformed nice, even, and full. This seems as fast as factory shells, or very close. I don't have a chronograph to prove it, but I would consider this a factory duplication load.

    I looked at two of my local stores for herco, as Woody suggested. Couldn't find any. They both had most everything else on the shelf, but no herco.

    Next, I'm going to back down the powder slightly and see if I can take the edge off the recoil, without getting back into "bloopers".

    Thanks again to all for the help.
    NRA life member

    LB

  4. #24
    Boolit Man
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    somewhere along the way a friend bought me a handfull of brass from the dirt mall. later, i noticed i had about 12 .444 marlin brass in the lot. the same guy that gave me the brass has an ISHY SS .410 SMLE. nothing fancy. i dropped the powder in , used a foam plate disk as a wad, dropped in the shot, used a foam plate disc to cover the shot, then sealed it off with some elmers paper glue.

    there was no fiddlin with the rim, no sizing no nothing really. all you needed equipment wise was a way to deprime and prime the brass. im sure you reload so i bet you have those covered.

    OH BTW, the .444 shotshells worked fine. i bet they would last for many reloads too.

    rm

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy
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    Anybody develop a very good load for very small shot in the judge revolver? I need something to work on rattlesnakes, and am wanting a smaller shot size than what I usually find in 410.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I have used 303 British brass to make 410 loads for my H&R handy rifle with a 45/410 barrel I have. I mostly shoot sollid bullets in it as the 45 colts were inaccurate at best but with a 250 gr lead flat oint sized 454 loaded in a blown out 303 case it shoots very well. I have also loaded bird shot using regular 410 wads and 2400 for powder and got good results for small game hunting.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnomrbillk View Post
    Anybody develop a very good load for very small shot in the judge revolver? I need something to work on rattlesnakes, and am wanting a smaller shot size than what I usually find in 410.
    Your looking for #12 ?

    Be warned, once shot gets smaller than #9, it gets harder to find, and pricey

    $32 / 10 lb bag at midway
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=814885

    I think the 8 gr herco load would probably work better in the judge, but I haven't tried it. I would weigh the shot charges, at least till you find what volume of #12 = 1/2 oz. I would expect it to pack tighter than larger shot.

    as for me, I'll stick to #9 or larger the price isn't worth it to me.
    Last edited by lylejb; 08-30-2010 at 11:22 PM.
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    LB

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy
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    I found a 25lb bag of #10 for $25 at an old bump in the road shop. I picked it up. I ordered most of the components, and although it will be a while, I will report back when I get to try it out in a Judge.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master

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    a standard load for 410 is 13 grains of 2400 that you can use in pretty much any case.
    A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.

  10. #30
    bhn22
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    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=189071008

    Ebays a bad place for working folks to buy gun stuff. This guy is willing to separate the two presses.

    for hulls...

    http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...4787&oh=216543
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Bro...=3016&Items=50

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhn22 View Post
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=189071008

    Ebays a bad place for working folks to buy gun stuff. This guy is willing to separate the two presses.

    for hulls...

    http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...4787&oh=216543
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Bro...=3016&Items=50
    Thank you for the reply, but that's a good example of the problem. $265 for two presses = $132.50 ea , used. It's not worth that much used.

    New there $165 at midway.

    Either is more than I paid for the shotgun.
    NRA life member

    LB

  12. #32
    bhn22
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    Go buy a more expensive shotgun

    That's always been my solution.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhn22 View Post
    Go buy a more expensive shotgun

    That's always been my solution.
    Mine is

    However the 410 is for my son, and we'll likely trade up in a year or two which is why I don't want to spend too much on equipment for a "temporary" shotgun.

    Once he gets into a 20ga, I can see a mec 600 jr in our future.

    unfortunatly, a more expensive shotgun doesn't make the shells any cheeper
    NRA life member

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  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    lylebj,

    Which model of shotgun did you get him? I got my son a NEF .410 years ago and been planning on get another shotgun bbl and a .357 or .44 mag bbl.
    De Oppresso Liber

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  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    It's the Rossi .410 / 22 lr combo set.

    Overall, I got what I paid for, but no more.

    I'm not really impressed with it.

    It's his first rifle / shotgun.....not his last, so temporary is the key word.

    I know Rossi makes larger 2 bbl and 3 bbl combo's but i think there on larger frames.

    If I could get a 357 barrel for this it might be ok.
    NRA life member

    LB

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Very late to this thread but it was useful to me as I was developing a 444 Marlin .410 load, so I thought I would share my experience:

    There is less information out there on this than you might think. However, this thread was extremely helpful. In the interests of helping others who may wish to do the same, I thought I would add to the store of knowledge here.

    444 Marlin Brass. If from already fired sources, you may well need to full length resize, if not, no need provided you are only using the brass in one gun. I used Remington brass.

    Circle Fly Nitro (over powder) Wads sized to .430". Serves as the gas seal. I used the 1/8" depth wads which is too deep. I remove about 1/3 (off the top so that the rounded "waxed" bottom edge seats over the powder) of each wad prior to seating. One could very well use the .430" diameter overshot cards.

    BPI Gualandi MG .410 plastic wads. This is a medium length wad with a short base. Its diameter is insufficient to provide a really good gas seal but it does sit well, if not pressure snug, against the fiber wad. The shot load exceeds capacity of the shot cup and fills to the top of the cartridge.

    I just used chilled #9 shot from Cabelas. A Lee 2.5cc powder dipper will deliver almost exactly 1/2 oz (weight) of #9 shot. This is for my 9 y.o son to shoot clays with and he will benefit from more shot per load than from the extra length of #7.5 shot.

    Circle Fly .430" overshot cards.

    Lee Marlin 444 Factory Crimp Die

    I prime with Win Large Pistol primers using my Lee Auto Prime hand tool.

    I use my powder measure to throw an amount of H110 comparable to published loads for AA Winchester Hulls with a variety of wads. It's up to you, but unless you are shooting some uber-fragile damascus barreled super softy, midroad data should be fine with the Marlin brass.

    I seat the fiber wad (1/3 depth removed) with a 3/8" wooden dowel and push hard to seat with the black mandrel in the picture (from a 45 Colt Lee Loader set).

    The Gualandi MG plastic wad drops in and is seated atop the fiber wad with a light tap by the brass rod.

    Using my plastic powder funnel, I drop in 1/2 oz of #9 shot using a Lee 2.5cc powder measure. This fills to the top (over the end of the plastic wad).

    I hand seat the overshot card and use the the 3/8" dowel to get a visible recess (@ 1/20") and then feed it into a Lee 444 Marlin Factory crimp die to crimp the overshot card into place. No water glass, wax or other gubbins.

    It's really quite easy.

    Shot cartridges are not full length resized, just use a Lee Universal case mouth expanding die to resize the case mouth.


  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by lylejb View Post
    Ok,

    I loaded up a few shells at 11.5, 12.5, and 13.5 grains to try. All went bang, but I noticed 2, one at 11.5, and one at 13.5, were "bloopers". That is, maybe half velocity or so.

    I also noticed several of the cases seemed to expand in only the last 1/2 to 3/4 inch at the mouth. A few of these are quite visible. An hourglass sort of shape.

    The barrel is very dirty, lots of unburnt powder.

    I think this all adds up to these loads do not make enough pressure to burn win 296 the way it should.
    OK, looking back, I can tell you EXACTLY where your problem is... because I had the same issue last year.

    A 410 has a 0.410 bore diameter, so the wads are 0.410 diameter. The issue is that new 444 brass is 0.427 diameter, and yes, it expands when fired. You're getting gas leakage around the wad, and that's killing your pressure curve and your burn.

    There are exactly two ways to go with this.

    A - Use felt and nitro-card wads. Circlefly is about the best place to get them, but be ready for some "fun" getting them seated without a press. I lost count of how many times I pinched my fingers doing exactly that.

    B - Go back to plastic cases. Either use a hand tool or get a MEC press. I've got both, used the hand tools for a couple years, they work great, but now I have my son, one daughter, and three neices shooting 410s, so I got an MEC. If you want, I'd sell you my hand tools reasonably. PM if interested.

    There was another option, there were stories of an outfit making brass 410 hulls that were 0.410 inside so you could use plastic wads, but I think they went out of business. At any rate, those one made the Magtech hulls look inexpensive...

    Good luck!

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by koehlerrk View Post


    A - Use felt and nitro-card wads. Circlefly is about the best place to get them, but be ready for some "fun" getting them seated without a press. I lost count of how many times I pinched my fingers doing exactly that.



    There was another option, there were stories of an outfit making brass 410 hulls that were 0.410 inside so you could use plastic wads, but I think they went out of business. At any rate, those one made the Magtech hulls look inexpensive...

    Good luck!
    As shown above, a 3/8" wooden dowel seats them well and the slightly smaller diameter (.425) mandrel drives .430" sized wads from Circle Fly quite nicely onto the powder charge to give a good seal. The Gualandi .410 plastic shot cup then sits atop the nitro wad so that you get better longer range patterns. No matter the choke, if you just use fiber wads and shot, you are effectively creating spreader loads and I doubt they will be of any use beyond 20 yards max.

    Rockly Mountain makes brass cartridges sized to .410 interiors that you can load as per any plastic hull formula.

  19. #39
    Boolit Man Smithy's Avatar
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    .45 acp die will size the cases.
    If you check out the SAAMI specs for a few cases, I came up with the 444 itself for a resizing die. The base dimensions are identical between the two, whereas the 45 ACP is a few thousandths off of being right on the money. The problem of course is that "Other" dies want to do nasty things to the top of the 410 brass before you get the bottom resized. That's why I chose the Lee Factory Crimp Die. It has a carbide ring at the base to keep things in sized check while the bullet is being seated with a collet. Well, just remove the whole top end and toss the collet sizer and you'll have plenty of clearance for the 410.
    Salvation is through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and in Him alone.

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy
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    9.3X74R and .303 Brit can both be made into some really nice .brass .410 shells.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check