444 marlin brass for 410 brass shotshells

[lylejb]

has anyone tried this?

looking at the dimention drawings, it looks like it might work

any thoughts?

[oksmle]

Been doing it for years.... Occasionally you'll run across a shotgun that won't close on an unmodified case. Then you simply thin the case rim down from the front side & dedicate those cases to that particular gun. I use nothing but doubles & singles so don't have a problem with functioning through a pump or autoloader. One friend has a pump & has to make sure his case rim has a bit of radius to function. I learned the hard way to use large pistol instead of large rifle primers. After the initial firing, see if the just fired & dirty cases will fit easily back into the dirty chamber. If they do then I no longer size them because if dirty will fit in dirty, then clean will fit in clean. They have lasted for years like that. I sharpen the rim of a .444 case (from the outside not inside) & punch out my over shot wads. This assures me a good fit.
I've used 13.5 grains of #2400 over a Remington LP primer, followed by a Remington 2 1/2 shot cup filled with 230 grains of either #4 or #7 1/2 shot & capped of with the self cut over shot card. I don't use a crimp, but instead wipe a smear of Elmer's waterproof glue across the cup. When it dries I write the shot number on it. This load chrono's at 1100 fps with either #4s or #7 1/2s. They both pattern nicely at 25 yards.
I also worked up a 4 ball load that is deadly on bigger stuff.

[lylejb]

Thank you OKSMLE,

I'm looking for a reduced loading for my son. I've noticed the 410 data uses slower powder than 12 ga. like H110, 2400, ect.

Has anyone tried unique? I know it works in larger shotguns, and i've seen data down to 28 ga.

maybe 10 gr unique would work for this too??

[shotman]

one problem you may have with unique is its bulky that may cut your shot amount down

[woody1]

Thank you OKSMLE,

I'm looking for a reduced loading for my son. I've noticed the 410 data uses slower powder than 12 ga. like H110, 2400, ect.

Has anyone tried unique? I know it works in larger shotguns, and i've seen data down to 28 ga.

maybe 10 gr unique would work for this too??

I use about 8 grains of Herco - just use a dipper made from a fired 9mm case - and either 3/8 or 1/2 oz. of shot in either 444's or WAA 410 cases. You could go up to 9 grains using Herco. I think your 10 gr. of Unique is too much and Unique just a touch too fast for 410's.
Seems like I've chronographed similar loads:
Rem case 3/8 oz. Shot -
8.5 gr. Herco, Win 209 + card wads & styro to fit - 1215 fps 1 shot
8.0 Herco , as above 1153 fps 1 shot
YMMV Now for the fine print - I certainly don't recommend anyone try these loads that have worked for me. They are not lab tested and may not work for you in your guns!

Regards, Woody

[Andy Griffith]

Converting .444 brass to .410 is ok if you have plenty of .444 brass.

However, why not just sell or trade the .444 to someone for some .410 brass, considering they are very, very close in price- at least for new brass. Then, you have no mess and no worries!

Also, the .444 doesn't give quite as much capacity as a 2 1/2" .410 brass hull because of length and internal structure.

[lylejb]

Converting .444 brass to .410 is ok if you have plenty of .444 brass.

I have no 444 or 410 brass.

they are very, very close in price- at least for new brass.

nope, magtech 410 brass in nearly $1 each, 444 brass is close to 50 cents.

the .444 doesn't give quite as much capacity as a 2 1/2" .410 brass

That's ok, I'm looking for a light / reduced load for my son.

My real problem is there's no way i've found to load 410 INEXPENSIVLY.

I bought my son a 410 for his birthday, but I expect in a year or two, we'll trade up.

MEC is the only one i know of that makes a 410 press, and that's too much $$ for a short term.

Used mec 410 presses on fleebay go for nearly new price

Lee no longer makes Lee loaders in 410. The used one I saw , again on fleebay, had a $75 opening bid

I've been loading metallic for 20 years or so, and have the expected accumulation of equipment ( press, powder measure, casting equipment, ect.)

i've seen threads about homemade improvised tools, and if i had a lathe I would make my own, but no such luck.

There must be some way to use some / most of what i've got.

[shotman]

well done a little playing today. A 444 can be loaded very fast by hand. It will hold 1/2 oz shot
I found that a 45 case will cut a over shot wad. and drive tight . I tried a plastic lid off a cottage cheese container. it will cut about 50 they will drive tight with a 3/8 dowel didnt move under recoil in a judge.
Next thing --- How long will it be before someone tries a 444 in the judge?? they will fit

[Guesser]

444 will work well in a Judge and the case is stronger than the 410 case and won't expand as much allowing them to just drop out. I'm working on a 410 duplex load of #1 and #4 buck.
Lots of fun, the 444 cases will not cycle thru a Winchester 9410 but they work in my Mossberg bolt gun.

[Rrusse11]

Lylejb,
Done a lot of rounds with 444 cases. I've used a standard die set with the Lee Factory Crimp die as the finish to hold a tight fitting overshot wad in place. The collet does a lovely roll on the end of the case that blows out on firing, quicker than messin' with glue IMO. I found that eventually I'd end up resizing the brass, but that'll depend on the load, don't have the data to hand. Time consuming but a LOT cheaper than buying 410 shells. I did do a little messing around with Win 405 brass which will fit with some rim modification, longer bigger capacity case.
I ended getting a Ponsness progressive 800 shotshell press and that spits 'em out every time you pull the handle.
Cheers,
R*2

[shotman]

something for you guys that dont have a shotshell press to keep the cottage cheese wads straight . A lee push through bullet sizer .452 works great turn it upside down and a 444 will go all the way in, the card will sit straight just tap it in. The 5 I shot and they didnt move

[woody1]

I have no 444 or 410 brass.



nope, magtech 410 brass in nearly $1 each, 444 brass is close to 50 cents.



That's ok, I'm looking for a light / reduced load for my son.

My real problem is there's no way i've found to load 410 INEXPENSIVLY.

I bought my son a 410 for his birthday, but I expect in a year or two, we'll trade up.

MEC is the only one i know of that makes a 410 press, and that's too much $$ for a short term.

Used mec 410 presses on fleebay go for nearly new price

Lee no longer makes Lee loaders in 410. The used one I saw , again on fleebay, had a $75 opening bid

I've been loading metallic for 20 years or so, and have the expected accumulation of equipment ( press, powder measure, casting equipment, ect.)

i've seen threads about homemade improvised tools, and if i had a lathe I would make my own, but no such luck.

There must be some way to use some / most of what i've got.

I hear ya lylejb from Canby. If you're willing to fritz around with your stuff and don't have to load 4-5 boxes an hour, you CAN do it cheap. Do you have a ....... oh heck I've posted this here and other places before. Just PM or e-mail me. Regards, Woody

[lylejb]

To Woody,

Thanks. I seached you prior posts and found your description. That does help me.

To Andy, Thanks, PM replied.

[nelsonted1]

A few years ago surplus Enfield no1 410 single shot shotguns were sold. The Indian govt made-over rifles into single shot sotguns for riot control. My buddy is a gunsmith and foamed at the mouth over the possibilities using 41 magnum bullets in a strong 410 "shotgun" -he was going to use a rifled barrel but keep the 410 chamber. Be fully legal in MN shotgun only area we hunt in. Also talked about rebarreling a 410 Saiga shotgun to a rifled slug gun.

TED NELSON

[Denver]

A very good powder to use in the 410 is surplus WC820 if you have it or can still get some. I use it in 2 1/2 and 3 in hulls and get great results. 13 to 14 grains works for me. I used it in 444 cases also with 1/2 oz shot. I think I remember using a card over powder wad as well as the shotcup. It's been awhile and didn't pursue it much as I only have a slide action shotgun. They would be great in a single or double gun.

[megafatcat]

.45 acp die will size the cases.

[lylejb]

Ok, The 444 brass landed, and I set down to put a few of these together.

I'm using R-P 444 brass, Win large pistol primers, Fed 410 shotcup / wads, and BPI 410 overshot cards, 1/2 oz #8 shot

Looking at the various web sites for powder / load data

The 8gr herco load, as Woody suggested, shows up on several personal pages, but none of the powder co's sites. I've never had or used herco before. Is it a larger flake powder, like unique, just a slower burn rate?

Alliant has their "new" 410 powder out, so most of their data is for that. Never had, or seen, any of that either.

Lots of loads for win 296 - H110. most seem to be 14 - 15 grs depending on what combo of hull and wad. I have both of these, they used to be my favorite 44mag fuel. My concern is that 296 is such a fine grain, that it might migrate / leak past the wad in handling or storing the shells. I don't think the plastic wads fit the brass cases as tightly as they would in plastic cases. Anyone know of or had this happen?

Looking at the burn rate chart, blue dot, win 571, and 800x all fall between herco and h110. I would think they should be usefull, and I have these . anyone tried any of these?

My goal is an inexpensive, light / low recoil load for my son. The compromise needs to be, however, it still has to have enough to be usefull.

I loaded up a few with 11.5 of 296 last night, haven't shot them yet. maybe today or tomorow. these might be too light for 296. If I recall 296 liked higher pressures. we'll see how they work.

what loads / powders are you guys using?

Thanks again.

[woody1]

Ok, The 444 brass landed, and I set down to put a few of these together.

I'm using R-P 444 brass, Win large pistol primers, Fed 410 shotcup / wads, and BPI 410 overshot cards, 1/2 oz #8 shot

Looking at the various web sites for powder / load data

The 8gr herco load, as Woody suggested, shows up on several personal pages, but none of the powder co's sites. I've never had or used herco before. Is it a larger flake powder, like unique, just a slower burn rate?
Looks like Unique, burns a little slower.

Alliant has their "new" 410 powder out, so most of their data is for that. Never had, or seen, any of that either.

Lots of loads for win 296 - H110. most seem to be 14 - 15 grs depending on what combo of hull and wad. I have both of these, they used to be my favorite 44mag fuel. My concern is that 296 is such a fine grain, that it might migrate / leak past the wad in handling or storing the shells. I don't think the plastic wads fit the brass cases as tightly as they would in plastic cases. Anyone know of or had this happen? I personally dont think 296 or H110 appropriate for the 444, esp/. for light loads and I don't use it. I do use it in Win AA hulls (the old style tapered ones). With those hulls and a good plastic wad it does well. I believe you're right about the possible leakage problem in 444 cases. I haven't experienced it 'cause I don't use it. You could try it with an over powder wad between the powder and the shotcup to eliminate the leakage problem

Looking at the burn rate chart, blue dot, win 571, and 800x all fall between herco and h110. I would think they should be usefull, and I have these . anyone tried any of these? Nope

My goal is an inexpensive, light / low recoil load for my son. The compromise needs to be, however, it still has to have enough to be usefull.

I loaded up a few with 11.5 of 296 last night, haven't shot them yet. maybe today or tomorow. these might be too light for 296. If I recall 296 liked higher pressures. we'll see how they work. I thinkyou're way to light on the powder charge. My book says 14 grains in my WAA hulls with the proper WAA41 only produces 9800 LUP which is low pressure for the 410.

what loads / powders are you guys using? 13 grains of 2400 should put you in the ball park.

Thanks again.

Regards, Woody

[lylejb]

Ok,

I loaded up a few shells at 11.5, 12.5, and 13.5 grains to try. All went bang, but I noticed 2, one at 11.5, and one at 13.5, were "bloopers". That is, maybe half velocity or so.

I also noticed several of the cases seemed to expand in only the last 1/2 to 3/4 inch at the mouth. A few of these are quite visible. An hourglass sort of shape.

The barrel is very dirty, lots of unburnt powder.

I think this all adds up to these loads do not make enough pressure to burn win 296 the way it should. If I remember right, 296 liked high pressures.

That's too bad, I have a can and a half with no higher calling.

Looking at the burn rate chart, 2400 is only a touch faster than 296.
The differance is speed is probably not enough to matter much, but does it do better at low pressures?

I was thinking a faster powder would build higher pressure more quickly, and be the answer to the "bloopers".

Have any thoughts on about 10 gr of blue dot?

Thanks again.

[jmh54738]

I have chronoed hundreds of 410 rounds using 444, magtech 410 brass, and 9.3x74R brass. I settled on 12,4 grains of Blue Dot with cardboard overpowder wad and cork wad filler with 1/2 oz shot in the 444. Vel of 1125. Published 410 data is out the window when using Magtech brass as the ID is .450. I also got a lot of bloopers using 410 data in these cases. The primer is different, not a 209, and the expansion ratio, or combustion area is all wrong when trying to use 41 caliber load data in a 45 caliber case. I looked forward to the two part feature in "Handloader" on loading brass shells. They got low velocity bloopers also. I was disappointed in the end when they stated that Magtech does not recommend smokeless loads in their brass cases. I got them all to work well and use circle fly cardboard and fiber wads in an old Herter's mdl 72 loader and some home made tooling.