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Thread: Armi Sport Sharps...any good?

  1. #61
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    Did they send .50 Basic, that needs trimmed to length?
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by willdixon View Post
    I just now full sized all this Starline brass - three times for each shell, just in case. And it WILL chamber. Just barely, but it WILL chamber.
    In posts on other forums, you mentioned that your new brass is a touch short of 2.5 inches. After that full-length sizing, it may have grown enough to tickle you pink...or make you see red, if it is now too long.

    I would not trim it yet, if it does measure longer than 2.5". Instead, fireform it with packed COW for a bullet. Then see what it's length is...compared to that chamber cast you intend to make.

    The next trick will be to see how much it shortens when fired.
    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  3. #63
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    WOW - CHARLIE!

    See, I'm so new and dumb about all this BPCR loading business. I hadn't even thought of re-measuring the brass after full-length sizing. I would not have assumed it would have made any difference, BUT....

    YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT: EACH SHELL DID STRETCH OUT TO THE 2.50"!

    And yes, I'll go ahead and fire form them now, but what is this "COW" business? Have I got to go shoot a bunch of cows?

    Thank you.

  4. #64
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    COW is cream of wheat. I am not sure how much powder for forming but basicly you put smokeless in the case and COW on top and compress it, no boolit.
    Fire this from the gun and it will fire form the cases to your chamber.
    With BP all you should have to do is neck size or just stick a boolit in the case after loading all of the other components.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  5. #65
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    Thank you very much, Bob -

    But no, I don't have any smokeless powder, and wouldn't have any idea how to do that COW bit properly, so I'll just load them up with lead when everything else is ready. Simpler for me.

    Is that you with the parachute? I took up skydiving at age 65, with an Accellerated Freefall Course, and was just doing great! But, on my 9th jump I had a major heart attack and had to be helioed to an hospital for a triple bypass - terminating my skydive career - darn it!

    Thanks again....

  6. #66
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    Willdixon have you found the bullets you were wanting? Do you still intend to use paper patch?
    Shoot to thrill.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by willdixon View Post
    I hadn't even thought of re-measuring the brass after full-length sizing. I would not have assumed it would have made any difference, BUT....
    Will,
    A brass case can be likened to two ounces of water in a container.
    Pour the water in a wide jar, and it has a certain depth. Call that the water column height.
    Move that same volume of water into a narrow bottle, and the column height increases.

    Your brass was initially too fat...like water in the jar, and you made it more narrow by resizing...like pouring it into the narrow bottle.
    Since the amount of brass did not change, it had to take on a different length (or brass column height) when the case became 'narrower'

    When you fire that brass, it will fatten to fill the diameter of your chamber.
    If it fattens only a little, the length will not decrease much, but there will be a change.

    Back when you reported success in getting your cases to chamber after resizing, you said they "just barely" chambered.
    I am curious about what you meant by "just barely".

    Care to expand on that?

    CM
    Last edited by montana_charlie; 04-24-2008 at 12:17 PM.
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  8. #68
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    Yeah, I can see that now that you showed me, but I had not thought of the cases lengthening just because I full-lengh sized them. But obviously I just didn't have my brain in gear.

    BUT NOW LEMME' ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION.

    Everything I have read says the stock Sharps 50/90 brass is designed for bullets .512" in diameter. E.g., there's a spec sheet on 50/90 cartridges at http://www.accuratearms.com/data/Per...0and%20369.pdf which shows this.

    NOW I KNOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ONLY USE APPROXIMATELY BORE DIAMETER BULLETS FOR PAPER PATCH, SO HOW TO YOU LOAD BORE DIAMETER BULLETS IN SHELLS MADE FOR .512" DIAMETER BULLETS?

    Thank you.

    will

  9. #69
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    Will, that way works as well.
    Yes that is me. I was the last one on the ground on the last day of operation of a drop zone that I worked at since August 1969. This was July15, 07. A pretty emotional day for all involved. The grass strip was started by WWII vets in 46, now it is going to be a rock quarry. Just what the world needs another hole in the ground.

    Bob
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by willdixon View Post
    BUT NOW LEMME' ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION.
    Ok, but you didn't answer mine...about your cases "barely chambering".
    NOW I KNOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ONLY USE APPROXIMATELY BORE DIAMETER BULLETS FOR PAPER PATCH, SO HOW TO YOU LOAD BORE DIAMETER BULLETS IN SHELLS MADE FOR .512" DIAMETER BULLETS?
    To start with, you are going to use very soft bullets...maybe even pure lead...so they are going to 'bump up' to some degree when fired.

    Secondly, and this is the whole point of the 'paper patch', you will wrap a couple layers of paper around the bullet.

    If that paper is (say) 3 thousandths thick, one wrap will 'fatten' the bullet by 6 thousandths. (You gotta consider the paper on both side of a bullet when measuring that.) Two wraps will give you an increase of 12 thousandths.

    That is enough to fill the groove diameter (.512") of a .50 caliber barrel if you started with a .500" diameter bullet.

    Actually, many paper patchers start with a bullet less than bore diameter (.500") and patch it up to a point where it is still less than groove (.512) by a generous amount.

    Some of those guys start with such an undersized bullet, it is barely over bore diameter after patching.
    The bullet 'bumping up' handles the final fit when it's fired.

    This is an answer from a guy who has never paper patched. There is much more to learn...but not from me.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  11. #71
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    The guys that shoot the long range MLs use paper patched boolits that slide down the bore from just the weight of the ramrod. Those are shot out to 1000+ yds. They say that recovered boolits will be groove diameter from one end to the other, so they definately bump up.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  12. #72
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    THANK YOU CHARLIE AND BOB -

    Sorry I didn't answer your question, Charlie. The cases were too fat, and you couldn't push them into the chamber all the way by hand. But then, when I full-length sized them, they WILL chamber okay.

    BOB, yes, I've heard about the pros using "loose" bullets in their MLs. But I've also read this is true with some of the award winning Sharps black powder cartridge shooters, i.e., their bore diameter or slightly less than bore diameter bullets will move up and down inside the bore with ease. I'm just not used to that idea, but I'm catching on.

    Thanks a million.

    will

  13. #73
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    For everybody who has been following along, you have seen more than one mention of cases that can be too short for a chamber.

    If that is a problem you have, see my thread at...
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20646
    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  14. #74
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    Black Powder Cartridge Pedersoli 50/90

    Okay, BLACK PRINCE, you wanted to know: I've loaded up my first 20 rounds of long-range, ready to fire tomorrow. I wish I knew how to post pictures on here, 'cause the shots of these rounds look gorgeous.

    They are:

    BACO .492" mould
    650gn
    1.44" long
    20:1 lead:tin
    Brass Starline, annealed, full sized (had to; they wouldn't chamber), weighed, measured, deburred
    All bullets within .5gn of each other, indexed in cases
    Primers Federal 215 Large Magnum Rifle
    Cartridges will be indexed in chamber
    Powder 122gn Swiss 1.5, dropped slowly through 2' drop tube
    Patch BACO 9# dry wrapped; not lubed; I'll leave a little lube in the bore after each shot perhaps.
    Over powder wad - two .030 veggie wads, no other wads nor grease cookies.
    Clean bore after each shot, NAPA + water
    Compress powder .085
    Bullets seated .285, bullets high up into rifling.

    I know, not everyone is going to agree with these paramaters, but I'm excited with these for starters. Also, I've got to go in for my second open-heart surgery June 9th (to get a pig's valve), and I just didn't have any more time. My surgery chances are dismal.

  15. #75
    Boolit Buddy Black Prince's Avatar
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    Sounds good to me Will

    Wal, JUST DANG!!!! It sounds like you have been doing some reading and research and have put together some loads that ought to shoot good.

    But ahhhhh, Will, you probably doan hafta worry about that heart surgery. If shooting a 650 grain bullet powered by 122 grains of Swiss 1.5 and the fire started with a Federal 215-M doan kill ya, ain't nuthin' gonna. That is gonna be one ash kickin' load!

    I'll be ah prayin' fer you pard. Dang shore will.
    All the best.
    The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.

  16. #76
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    Black Powder Cartridge Pedersoli 50/990

    Ha ha - yeah, Black prince - you're right. If I shoot tomorrow I'll have to go in for a shoulder operation before the open-heart surgery! Worst part is, I've ordered one of those jive space-age butt stock recoil pads and a matching strap-on shoulder pad, but they haven't gotten here yet.

    BUT HEY, REMEMBER, I AM A FORMER UNITED STATES MARINE, AND WHEN IT GETS TOO TOUGH FOR EVERYONE ELSE, IT'S JUST RIGHT FOR US! smile.

    Seriously, when we lived up in wilderness Alaska, I shot my .460 Weatherby Magnum a lot, and I just can't believe this'll kick much more than that! That was a real killer! No one can fire a .460 Weatherby Magnum more than 4 or 5 rounds in any one day, without building up an enormous subdural hemotoma. But I don't care about recoil; I won't be shooting in any organized matches where you have to run off 20 rounds or so at a time. If I can only handle 5 shots a day - that'll be just fine with me. And, in order to gain more and better long range capability, I'm willing to dump in more powder and a heavier bullet. My entire thing is simply to see how small groups I can develop at the 1000 yard private range I'll be using near here.

    I've lost your email address. Email me at oldmanriver@alltel.net, and I'll send you these shots of my loads. You'll like 'em!

    Yes, and thank you, pal, for your prayers. I may not make it, but at least I'll be going out doin' what I like best!

    Later

  17. #77
    Boolit Buddy Black Prince's Avatar
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    You ARE a Marine!!!

    There are no former Marines. Once a Marine, always a Marine. Since it's memorial Day, let me tell you a story about my neighbor who is an 83 year old Marine from Alabama. He was one of the original Marine raiders.

    When he was 76, his son gave him an Uzi semi-auto 9mm. He wanted me to take him out to shoot it, so I took him to a friends place who trained law dogs on how to do down and dirty shooting as a private instructor. (He was a Navy Seal and knew a few things about fighting.) We set up a standard silloutte target and started walking down the range and stopped at the 50 yard mark. Mike, the old Marine, just kept walking and started down the driveway. So we tagged along to see where he was going to stop. He stopped about 100 yards from the target.

    So my buddy who trains law dogs says, now just keep your attention on the sights and squeeze the trigger. Mike looked at him and said, boy, you just watch and see how it's done. With that he cranked off 10 rounds in a steady timed fire rate from the off-hand position. My buddy looked at the target with his binoculars and said, uhhhhh, looks like we are gonna hafta move up some until you can get it zeroed because there isn't a single bullet hole in the center, or anywhere I can see. The silloutte target has the bullseys and scoring rings in the middle of the stomach area and sure enough, there were no holes in it.

    Mike looked at us and said, well dam it, there shouldn't be and bullet holes in the center of the stomach. Look up there between his eyes and tell me what you see because I was shooting at his head. There were 10 bullet holes across the forehead of that dam target!!! The old Marnie grined and said, do you boys want to try? So we did and it was a chore to keep those rounds in the stomach area from off-hand at that range shooting that dern uzi with the fold up stock and I know that I could not have duplicated his marksmanship.

    Mike just celebrated his 84th birthday last week. He still drinks, smokes, and I wouldn't cross that old bastard for anything. He is the honest to God real deal in a time and place when we just don't have any of those guys left anymore. And as Charlie Askins (the younger) used to say, " and more's the pity!"

    I'm excited about your project Will, dang shore am. Let us all know how those loads shoot. BTW, I have one of those slip-on recoil sissy pads too, and they are well worth having. This is supposed to be fun and not punishment. We old farts need to pay attention to that because we doan heal up like we used to.
    Last edited by Black Prince; 05-26-2008 at 05:02 PM.
    The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.

  18. #78
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    Black Powder Cartridge Pedersoli 50/90

    No, I can tell you weren't in the Corps.

    We Marines have a thing: You never say, "I am an ex-Marine"; the correct terminology is, "I am a former Marine". Trust me, I'm very proud of my time in the Corps, and even have a shadow box on my wall with all my medals and such, and even a photo of the Commanding General giving me a special Medal of Commendation.

    My grandson is just about to graduate from the United States Naval Academy, and will be going into the Corps as a career grunt officer! And my baby daughter, also an Academy graduate, is a career Navy Officer about to do her fourth tour in the Middle East. She was the Ops Officer aboard the USS Lake Erie, and in charge of the operation of shooting down that satellite recently. Of course the show was really run by civilian NASA engineers on her ship, but she was technically in charge of the ooperation. Am I proud?

    I love the sound of your old Marine pal. Remember, I'm 77, and he and I probably served at the same time.

    Later....

  19. #79
    Boolit Buddy Black Prince's Avatar
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    THAT'S right JARHEAD!!!

    Well!!! I stand corrected Marine. I was a Boatswains mate second class. My ID card said Department of the Navy. Yours did too, so there!

    My DI at the Great Lakes was a dam gunny sargent jarhead. He wasn't scheduled to be, but the Navy first class that was supposed to be the DI was in a car wreck the day my class arrived and the gunny got screwed with my company of recruits. So he was already whizzed when we got off the train. He just LOVED to kick squid's ashes. He used to tell us, you squid's wouldn't make a pimple on a Marine's ash now double time and stay in formation or I'll have you down and give me 50. He told us that of the three companies in training then, if we didn't win every dam contest that he was gonna kick all our ashes.

    We won everything from shooting to close order drill and our company marched first in the graduation parade. But when he made us fix bayonetts and do close order drill, THAT made you pay attention buddy. I'll never forget a guy standing next to me on the firing line. We were all told if we had a misfire to raise our hands and let one of the line people clear it. They were all Jarheads too. This old boy had a misfire and raised his hand. As the Marine approached him, he turned toward him instead of staying as he was, and as that rifle barrel came off the down range attitude toward the next man in line, the marine popped him right over the ear with a right hand fist. The recruit droped like a sack of sand! I looked down at him and the jarhead said, if you don't want some of the same squid, keep your eyes and attention down range. This is none of your business. So I gave him the sir, YES SIR and kept my eyes down range you betcha.

    Then when we got to the 600 yard prone shooting, I and one other guy were top shooters so we had to shoot it off. All the officers were standing behind us. The Marine private who was my "coach" told me I didn't have the sling tight enough on my M-1. Now my dad was a career Marine and retired as hand gun coach to the Midshipmen at Annapolous and I had been trained since I was 10 on how to shoot Marine style. So I told the "coach" that if he'd just let me the hell alone, I could shoot.

    Well now, this ole boy was about 6'4" tall, weighed about 210, he was from Alabama, was as black as the inside of a cow, and he knew that I was from Mississippi. He could run through a brick wall. He just grunted and said, well if you don't squid, I'm gonna kick your ash. So now I had all the officers behind me and my coach threatening to kick my ash and I had already seen that they would do exatly that, so I had just a little pressure on me.

    The guy next to me in the shoot off was Thomas R. Micheals from Lake of the Orzark, Missouri. He was a good guy and he could shoot too. We later served on the same ship and landing party together but I was issued a BAR which was the squad automatic weapon in those days. It was a good one too because those things are VERY accurate. Tommy only had an M-14. That always whizzed him off. But that day at the Lakes, Tommy didn't have the same motivation that I had to make every shot count and I had all rounds in the black and he had two just out. After the shooting the jarhead "coach" told me "Good shooting squid." It saved your ash today but the next time I tell you to tighten the dam sling, I don't care if it breaks your arm. You tighten that sling or I'm gonna kick your ash. Man, that guy sounded like a broken record. It was his solution to everything.

    Of course, they can't hit people today or even curss them they way they did us back then. Too bad. It made my skinny butt sit up and take notice you betcha and it got the attention of even the hard cases. They were as serious as hell. After the shooting at the range, we were all standing in formation at attention and the poor ole boy that got smacked upside of the head was made to hold his rifle over his head and run around that HUGE shooting range while we stood there in the hot sun in silence, at attention, and watched. We could hear him grunting all the way across that field and they WANTED us to hear it. It was a real good lesson. When he got back he was about dead and could hardly stand. He was shaking all over and sweat just pouring off of him. The DI told him if he fell or fainted that he was gonna march the entire company over his dead body and for him to get in formation and keep up as we double timed it back to the barracks. My entire time at the Lakes was in double time. Jarheads just love double time or have you noticed that?

    But back then I could do 200 sit ups and not even blink and could run flat out for seven miles and I don't know how far I could swim because the bayou behind my house wasn't long enough to find out. I had played baseball and run track in High school and did cross country running, so the physical part was no big deal for me. I just had to learn all that stuff you have to learn in boot camp, but some of those guys were in poor shape when they got there and it was really rough on them. Some didn't know how to make up a bed, or polish shoes, or wear a neat uniform. My dad had prepared me well for all of that and I knew what was coming and how to do it. Geeze I think some of those guys had their momma do everything for them until the day they got on the train for boot camp.

    Too bad more young men don't have the opportunity to learn that you can do things you never thought you could do even if you are scared to death, and that as a team, you can do dam near the impossible because we all did it. I think about some of those guys on Memorial Day and wonder how life has treated them. Some of them were really quality guys. I kept up with a half dozen of them until everybody got married and then they just slipped away and letters came back No Forward Address. I always regretted that. Still do for that matter.
    The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.

  20. #80
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    Black Ppowder Cartridge

    GOOD MORNING, DECK APE!

    Sure, my ID card may have said DEPARTMENT OF NAVY (I don't really remember it). When there was some killin' needed doin', we had to have you guys carry us there so we could get it done. You were just a branch of the UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS! Yeeeehawwww!

    Yeah, military times have changed for the worst, like the rest of our society - with all the do-gooders, tree-huggers, liberals and lazy bums who figure the government owes them a comfortable living.

    But what the heck - I had my day and my America. 77 years of it. It was a different day, back in my '30s, and my America was a whole different ball game! And, although I was drafted into the Korean War, I served my country proudly and with honor.

    It's early morning here in central Florida right now, AND I CAN'T WAIT!

    IN A FEW HOURS I'LL BE CAPPIN' OFF MY FIRST 20 ROUNDS OR SO THROUGH MY BEAUTIFUL NOW PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90.

    What else is there!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check