Help with the 45-70 "Collar Button".

[RBak]

I have recently came onto a nice stash of 150gr collar buttons. I have been searching the archives for information on loads for this little puppy but most of what I have found has not been what one might call user friendly....almost scary!

Prior to searching for information I was thinking a load of 8.0 gr of Unique might be the ticket, but from what I'm reading it seems there may be some concern with any "reduced" load.

In my reading there was also some indication that 45 2.1 may know quite a bit about this particular little bullet, but I can't find where he personally posted his thoughts. If he should read this, maybe he could join in and help me out a bit.

Any help from anyone with experience with this little guy would be greatly appreciated.

In all likelihood these will only be fired in my Handy Rifle.

Russ

[45 2.1]

4570 Round Ball/Collar Button Load

Size a 4570 case for about an inch of neck and prime with large rifle primer and expand the neck so that a .457” bullet will go into neck about the width of a normal wood pencil lead thickness. Put in 3.9 grains (Little Dandy rotor #5) of WW 231. Measure distance from case mouth to powder. Subtract from that distance 1/8”and the thickness of a foam 45 caliber wad cut from an egg carton. This gives you the distance from the case mouth to the top of the foam wad. Seat that foam wad over the powder to that distance. DO NOT PUT THE WAD ON THE POWDER FOR ANY REASON!!!!!!! The powder needs to make a slope between it and the wad and that distance is 1/8” minimum. VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!! This allows the powder to burn consistently and provide the accuracy wanted. The wad distance is from Charlie Dell’s book and it has worked fine for me for over 500 RB loads. Now that you have it charged, seat a .457” RB to a little over ½ depth or a collar button seated to a little less than the top of the top band and crimp lightly. This arrangement shoots to my hunting sight zero to at least 50 yards and has killed many squirrels for me. I’m shooting it though a barrel of about 18 ½ to 20”.

[WHITETAIL]

What in the world is a collar button?

[RBak]

WOW! Never in my wildest dream did I imagine that any load would ever require this much attention.....What ever happened to size, prime, load, seat and fire.

The part I am having the most trouble with is...."Measure distance from case mouth to powder. Subtract from that distance 1/8”and the thickness of a foam 45 caliber wad cut from an egg carton. This gives you the distance from the case mouth to the top of the foam wad. Seat that foam wad over the powder to that distance..... Seat that foam wad over the powder to that distance. DO NOT PUT THE WAD ON THE POWDER FOR ANY REASON!!!!!!!"..........I can't seem to get a mental picture of this.
Perhaps going through the exercise will help it make a little more sense.

45 2.1...... I do appreciate you taking the time to post all this, but I am going to have to print it off, and study it a bit before I even start to try it. I do have lots wads, and I think I may have some WW 231 although it is going to be very old if I do.

I can now understand a little better why my search in the archives was a bit spotty with overtones of safety concerns....even a little scary, one might say.

Thanks again!

Russ

[SciFiJim]

What in the world is a collar button?

The Lyman 457130 is the official designation. I know that there has been at lease one group buy for that design in a Lee six cavity mold.

[Lee]

45-70 for squirrels??? What do you eat, the tails??

But I agree. A lot of work. Can you explain the reasoning behind all this?
Thanks

[SciFiJim]

My understanding for the collar button is to have a boolit the same weight as a round ball but stretched out some to have more contact with the rifling for improved accuracy.

Basically designed for cat sneeze loads for small game at fairly close range.

[45 2.1]

WOW! Never in my wildest dream did I imagine that any load would ever require this much attention.....What ever happened to size, prime, load, seat and fire.

The part I am having the most trouble with is...."Measure distance from case mouth to powder. Subtract from that distance 1/8”and the thickness of a foam 45 caliber wad cut from an egg carton. This gives you the distance from the case mouth to the top of the foam wad. Seat that foam wad over the powder to that distance..... Seat that foam wad over the powder to that distance. DO NOT PUT THE WAD ON THE POWDER FOR ANY REASON!!!!!!!"..........I can't seem to get a mental picture of this.
Perhaps going through the exercise will help it make a little more sense.

45 2.1...... I do appreciate you taking the time to post all this, but I am going to have to print it off, and study it a bit before I even start to try it. I do have lots wads, and I think I may have some WW 231 although it is going to be very old if I do.

I can now understand a little better why my search in the archives was a bit spotty with overtones of safety concerns....even a little scary, one might say.

Thanks again!

Russ

Everybody i've given this to had the same thoughts. This load shoots 1/2" at 50 yds.................... With that much room in a 4570 case, what would you expect? Try it without the foam wad and you get nothing worthwhile, with the wad is a completely different story. Ask BABore about it.

45-70 for squirrels??? What do you eat, the tails??

But I agree. A lot of work. Can you explain the reasoning behind all this?
Thanks

Accuracy.......... the squirrels taste quite good. I either take the head off or shoot thru the ribs. Nothing gets shot up. I do "bark" them with normal loads also, or take their heads off. The 4570 is as accurate as any other rifle you can come up with. Why load it to maximum...................

[Green Frog]

Current usage notwithstanding, the purpose of the Ideal Collar Button bullet was for gallery loads for the old Trapdoor Springfield so it could be used indoors in armories so they could continue practice through the Winter or other inclement weather. It was supposedly more accurate than simple round ball loads, but still a short range proposition.

About 10-15 years or so ago, Lyman reintroduced the mould on a limited basis and sold it as a package deal including top punch for lubing and a data sheet with suggested loads. I bought one of the last half dozen or so of that batch, but although I have loaned it out to several friends, I have yet to shoot any rounds with it myself. It was one of those good ideas that I haven't gotten around to actually doing yet!

Froggie

[swamp]

The ones on the right are the collar button. The rest are other 458s that I cast.

swamp

[94Doug]

Ideal 39 Manual has the 130 grain loading at 5 grains Unique @900fps. I have the page scanned if you would like a copy.

Doug

[Wayne Smith]

45 2.1, correct me if I'm wrong, but from Charlie's book the purpose of the distance is to prevent chamber ringing, no? I have the NEI copy of that mold, have only played with it a couple of times. I'm gonna have to try this one, I've not found that much accuracy with my loads.

[BABore]

It makes the little bit of powder think it's in an ACP case instead of a 45-70.

The load 45 2.1 gave is sub 3/4 inch or better accurate at 50 yards. At 100 yards it will stay on an NRA ram silhoutte target if your holding 2 foot over. At 135 yards or so it's lost all resemblance of stability. They start a side curving trajectory from there.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, correct me if I'm wrong, but from Charlie's book the purpose of the distance is to prevent chamber ringing, no?

That was the purpose initially, but it also makes the powder burn consistently. The collar button boolit isn't a long range number by any means.

[Dframe]

Does anyone have recommendations for a slightly heavier bullet? I have a supply of BRP gallery bullets that weigh 225 to 230 grains. I want to use them in my 45/70s.