lead bullets coated with polymer paint

[CiDirkona]

http://sandstromproducts.com/msds.html

How many of those are red herrings?

[pjh421]

I was reading this thread for updates today since improving the process is a subject near and dear to many of us. I noticed the references to Sandstrom products and clicked on a link. The first thing that got my attention was that they are pretty close to my town so I hopped in the Blazer (we got it running again) and rolled on over there.

A gentleman by the name of Mark was kind enough to receive me, unannounced. He listened to my questions and requests during a pleasant 20 or so minute conversation and I invited him to join the forum. He indicated that he would indeed be interested and he seems to have a good grasp of the dynamics requiring lubrication of a cast boolit.

I hope that he does as he may be able to shed light on a process whereby a guy would not have to buy a lubrisizer to shoot boolits at rifle velocities. I have owned a Star for 15 years now and love it but if I could buy a $20 rattle can and not have to handle each casting, well that's something I would make happen.

Thanks for another intriguing thread guys.

Paul

[DukeInFlorida]

Hi guys and gals....

I used to sell (as a commissioned salesman) for a company in Massachusetts which does a unique method of powder coating.

They specialize in the ability to do very small and tiny parts.

Large parts are normally hung on hangers, and then the poly powder is electrostatically sprayed on to the parts. The parts, still clinging to the powder, goes through a baking oven, where the powder melts, adheres to the part, and solidifies into rich looking paint.

The problem with small parts is that you can't hang them.

So, they do a process for small parts called, "Fluid Bed" coating.....

You first clean the parts, and then heat them to the melting temperature of the poly coating.

You place the parts on a conveyor belt for the heating (infrared oven), and as they drop off the end of the conveyor, they fall into a tank of the powder which is constantly being "fluffed up" by blowing compressed air through the bottom of it. Another webbed conveyor (which allows the powder to fall through, but not the coated small parts) takes the small parts out of the vat, to a cooling area.

The eyes and speed lace hooks on all of the Army boots are done by these people, and they also do lots of other things the same way.

I don't have any affiliation with them at this point. They are good people though. You could contract with them to do your coating. BUT.... don't expect to be able to do this yourself at home.

They'll make some samples for you:
http://www.collt.com/index.php

UPDATE:

After doing a LOT of additional reading, I see that some of the fishing "jig" makers are using small fluid beds to powder coat their product at home.
One guy mentioned getting a fluid bed on ebay.
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories

So, for $49, you can powder coat.

Here's how the process is done:
http://www.innotekllc.com/documents/...r_Coatings.pdf

[leftiye]

Could the boolits be heated hot enough to just dip them in the powder?

[geargnasher]

Very informative, Duke. Looks like that's the way to go in any decent volume.

Not that it would really ever be practical, but having an automatic boolit caster that chucked the boolits directly into the fluid vat for coating while still hot would be the ultimate set up.

Gear

[pjh421]

Well I applied some 28A to a few cast boolits each for .45-70; .45ACP; .44 Magnum; and .30 caliber rifle. This comes in a spray can (at least the version I have does). I noticed that spraying is an incredibly inefficient method of deposit for this purpose. I let them dry overnight and examined them this morning. After spraying from 4 directions there still remained portions of some boolits lacking coverage. I re-sprayed and will check again tomorrow as I am squeezing this in between doing things to help us move back into our home a little faster.

The boolits were placed nose down into some plastic trays for commercial 9mm cartridges for my first attempt at polymer coating. I'm going to measure to try to determine how thick the coatings are. The proof will be in the pudding as to whether it matters when I shoot these for groups. I am most interested in finding out whether I can bump the velocity of these slugs up considerably and have no leading, especially without gas checks. The noses remain uncoated and is due of course to the method of coating. Probably not a big deal for the SWC slugs but the ogival rifle boolits are causing me some concern.

The dip and spin method is probably state of the art at this juncture. I get the feeling that is where I'll be heading but will explore maybe using some waxed paper and a butter tub in an attempt to tumble lube somehow after spraying. I wonder how they keep the coating applied evenly as the castings dry. If the castings touch anything there would be a flat spot, right?

If the castings are spin dried en masse, wouldn't they stick together and have to be broken apart leaving flat spots and uncoated spots? This stuff causes my castings to stick to the plastic ammo trays I spray coated them in.

Paul

[Chook]

I still have a can of the Bullet Master Lube. The fellow that sold it passed away; he was from Lake Oswego Oregon, and I believe in the epoxy/lubricant industry somewhere. The can states the ingredients, and I know that methylene chloride is the carrier product because about once a year I have to add some more or it dries out. I can't see all the percentages of the product because some of the lube dripped over the label years ago. I CAN tell you though that I used this stuff to lube Lee 180gr .309 bullets with and fired them through my M-14. It is the finest lube I've ever used, as it dries like epoxy paint and is impossible to get off bullets. I never had any problems. Here is a link to a picture of the can.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chookvw/?saved=1

Do we have any chemists or knowledgable types on here. I 'm SURE this is just a repackaged can of a generally available industrial lube.

[Doby45]

Is that Chook as in Australian for chicken?

[Chook]

Is that Chook as in Australian for chicken?

Hell no, I'm not an Ozzie, I'm a Canad'jun, you know those guys north of the border? I believe you have a few of them living close to you in Louisiana; but they bastardized the name to Cajun after the Brits threw them out of Acadia in Eastern Canada. Dey speak dee ol' French like my mudder speak to me when I was da liddle kid eh? Dey are my relatives in dem der bayous n'est pas?

[Hammer]

This has been a great read. I have been chasing a hard coating for eight months to put on some 38 Super (Revolver shot) bullets. I have been using a commercial bullet that has a "semi'hard" moly coating which has a bad tendency to rub off on your fingers while you are loading.... You are a mess after twenty rounds.... I have talked to Mark at Sandstrom and he is a very great source of help. It is hard to get past specific products though without getting into proprietary stuff and I don't want to put him on the spot. I have some 28A in the garage and have tried it, but it did not solve my leading problems. Have tried larger bullets, but am afraid to go to .357 or .358 for fear of hurting the revolver.... At any rate, I am still experimenting. Have even started swaging (caugh - caugh) in order to find an alternative. I can NECO coat them and they work just fine... But NECO coat does not hold up to the pressures in my Super loads on cast lead bullets..... I am getting a little old to start new tricks, but I have decided I will solve this riddle before I go to the big shootin range in the sky..... I have also tried the spray cans of Moly, but as others have said, they leave uncoated spots that must be retreated. I have tried swirling in cups and also using lead shot as a transfer agent in a peanut butter jar in a tumbler. Problem always comes back to how to get the liquid to dry without the bullet sticking to somehting and then the coating peeling off.... This is what makes trips to the "man cave" so worth while these days... I have ordered some Rooster and Emulsified Wax fvor my next round. Has anyone tried the 45/45/10 with a moly (liquid) addative. Think I'll do that this weekend. Everyone enjoy!!!!

[leftiye]

I still have a can of the Bullet Master Lube. The fellow that sold it passed away; he was from Lake Oswego Oregon, and I believe in the epoxy/lubricant industry somewhere. The can states the ingredients, and I know that methylene chloride is the carrier product because about once a year I have to add some more or it dries out. I can't see all the percentages of the product because some of the lube dripped over the label years ago. I CAN tell you though that I used this stuff to lube Lee 180gr .309 bullets with and fired them through my M-14. It is the finest lube I've ever used, as it dries like epoxy paint and is impossible to get off bullets. I never had any problems. Here is a link to a picture of the can.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chookvw/?saved=1

Do we have any chemists or knowledgable types on here. I 'm SURE this is just a repackaged can of a generally available industrial lube.

Maybe we could start a new thread on this approach. I had some of this Bullet Master Lube back when, and I really liked it. The big complaint seemed to be the methylene chloride, but the guy selling it dying would explain why it dissappeared. I agree - we can probly figure out what it is and resurrect it.

[pjh421]

Hammer,

Oversized lead boolits won't hurt your revolver. They will size down when fired. If they are too big they won't even chamber.

Haven't moved forward on this project, been working on the house.

Paul

[MtGun44]

Hammer -
Going a bit larger with boolits is not going to hurt the revolver.

If you have leading, a primary cause is undersized boolits.

THE first thing to do if you have leading is to increase the diameter of the boolits.

Bill
OOPS - Paul and I must have been typing at the same time.

[Hammer]

Not trying to hijack the thread chasing bullet size... PROMISE! I have gone up to .358 and had trouble getting the rounds in the cylinder.... Still leads in the cylinder - not in the barrel.... Is it possible to "over hone" a cylinder? The real reason for the Moly is the (expected) lubricity and the benefit to velocity I derive in that particular load. Every other bullet I try requires more powder and thus increases felt recoil.... Not what I'm looking for in an ICORE load. The moly coated rounds I am purchasing provide this but will still lead in my revolver. My wifes revolver shoots the same rounds just fine.... Bout ready to pitch the revolver over the side and start over again... In the end, I am still looking for an acceptable vehicle to apply moly coating to these rounds to replicate the loads in my other .38 caliber weapons ( I have several and shoot everything from .38 shorts to .38 specials with those bullets.) Not to mention the same bullet sized down will work well in the Super load... I REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S ADVICE! This is the best forum on the net in my book.

Back to the thread: Didn't get to the 45/45/10 with Moly this weekend. Did try Sandstrom product with Rooster and Poly wax as well as NECO with Rooster an dPoly wax coatings as well. Mixing the Sandstrom product wit the wax before it is applied made a mess. You chemistsw out there probably knew that would happen.... The solvents in the Sandstrom product did not allow the Moly to mix well with the Poly coating and it went from powdered granules in the wax to a black blob as the percentages increased..... Did try the Neco impact coating and then followed the Rooster Jacket directions for coating the same bullets. That produced a satisfactory result as far as coating consistency. Will go to the range this weekend and try and see how they do. Not a chemist so I have to learn by trial and error....

[CiDirkona]

I still have a can of the Bullet Master Lube. The fellow that sold it passed away; he was from Lake Oswego Oregon, and I believe in the epoxy/lubricant industry somewhere. The can states the ingredients, and I know that methylene chloride is the carrier product because about once a year I have to add some more or it dries out. I can't see all the percentages of the product because some of the lube dripped over the label years ago. I CAN tell you though that I used this stuff to lube Lee 180gr .309 bullets with and fired them through my M-14. It is the finest lube I've ever used, as it dries like epoxy paint and is impossible to get off bullets. I never had any problems. Here is a link to a picture of the can.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chookvw/?saved=1

Do we have any chemists or knowledgable types on here. I 'm SURE this is just a repackaged can of a generally available industrial lube.

That is an eerily inconvenient drip right over the numbers...

[toddrod]

Is there a manufacturer listed on the can of that Bullet Master Lube that could be contacted??

[Chook]

That is an eerily inconvenient drip right over the numbers...

Yeah kind of freaky isn't it?? The ghost of the guy who owned Bulletmaster.

[Chook]

Is there a manufacturer listed on the can of that Bullet Master Lube that could be contacted??

No, as I stated earlier, the fellow died; but if we had someone with more time than me, or if someone wanted to do a bit of research, they could start selling it themselves. I'm pretty positive it's a generally available epoxy resin carrier impregnated with moly di, and other slippery stuff. This stuff dries as hard as nails when you use it, and my bores get a nice black shine to em, but no way does it lead. A few shots with jacketed slugs and bore looks new again.

[Good Cheer]

Anybody figure out an etch and water based wax dip process?

[castalott]

Maybe I'm off base here but this has potential. Imagine casting bullets without grease grooves. Think how much easier they would be to cast and inspect. I believe each grease groove is also a drag so the BC's would go up. Bearing surface would go up so maybe..just maybe ....pointier bullets in rifles would be possible too....and maybe boat tails too...

I'm not really sure how many improvements could come of this....

Good Luck to you all....

Dale