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Thread: lead bullets coated with polymer paint

  1. #1081
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    Popper-Thermosetting is thermosetting. Once the material melts, and the crosslinking of the polymers is complete, the product is cured. I agree their is a difference between hfp and Hi-tech,but since the methodology of curing is is the same for both, it is not the themosetting that differs these two ,but rather the substrates in the formulas that contribute to the hardness and tensile of the coating.If you peruse the MSDS's of various epoxy polymer powders you will see that some use titanium oxides,and others use various iron oxides,some carbon powders. The tensile and the hardness is probably dependent upon the ratio of substrate to polymer, and the molecular makeup after thermosetting.
    I would think that supercoat and Hy-teck are purpose formulated epoxy polymers that take into consideration necessary tensile, hardness, lube abilityand temperature ect.
    Most of the Powders that I have seen have hardness of between H-2H(20-28 BHN)
    I have a comparitor similar to a Cabine Tree that I built, I will test some or the coated bullets.
    In closing I think the performance= right powder coating,with a formula that would give adequate hard/tensile

  2. #1082
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankv View Post
    Popper-Thermosetting is thermosetting. Once the material melts, and the crosslinking of the polymers is complete, the product is cured. I agree their is a difference between hfp and Hi-tech,but since the methodology of curing is is the same for both, it is not the themosetting that differs these two ,but rather the substrates in the formulas that contribute to the hardness and tensile of the coating.If you peruse the MSDS's of various epoxy polymer powders you will see that some use titanium oxides,and others use various iron oxides,some carbon powders. The tensile and the hardness is probably dependent upon the ratio of substrate to polymer, and the molecular makeup after thermosetting.
    I would think that supercoat and Hy-teck are purpose formulated epoxy polymers that take into consideration necessary tensile, hardness, lube abilityand temperature ect.
    Most of the Powders that I have seen have hardness of between H-2H(20-28 BHN)
    I have a comparitor similar to a Cabine Tree that I built, I will test some or the coated bullets.
    In closing I think the performance= right powder coating,with a formula that would give adequate hard/tensile

    Franky,
    Thank you for your input. Most informative.
    In the majority, you are correct with what you saying about crosslinking, and products being thermosetting.

    What you are saying is correct in as much, that when two or more materials are reacted, to form a thermoset polymer, you are in fact producing a much higher molecular weight compound, that has a higher melting point than original components that were used to make the thermoset polymer.

    Where I feel, that you are saying that "methodology of curing is same for both", unfortunately I must disagree with this statement, as I think that this is a very broad generalisation and is really not applicable to all thermoset systems.

    Despite epoxies and similar, being thermoset, they all exhibit a fuse melting points, which occurs at various temperatures, and in the majority, at higher temperatures, than prior to thermosetting.
    However, not all thermoset polymers behave that way.

    It is a simple test to investigate properties of any thermoset polymer to determine if ite melts or fuses at elevated temperatures.

    Users, who are trying to examine their polymer, with melting point comparisons between thermoset coatings, can place carefully, on top of melted alloy, their own recipes of thermoset coated projectiles, and see what happens.
    They can repeat this simple test with any coated projectiles.

    Another method is what has been posted previously, where a blogger placed coated and uncoated projectiles on a steel plate and heated it at the bottom.
    As steel plate is progressively heated, to the melting point of the alloy, any changes to coatings and alloys can be easily observed as a direct comparison.

    As posted by some, when recycling coated projectiles, in melting pots, you can see what happens to coatings as they are heated, and also observe fumes / flames as material is subjected to heat and if they decompose.

    I suppose, this all may be applicable & relate to the coatings, being able withstand the temperatures that are produced during firing, and especially if people use guns where barrel may heat up, rapid fire, or with high energy powders.

    My motto is, if it works for you, use it.

  3. #1083
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Frankly your hardness testing results will be interesting. I'm testing to see how close I can get to GC performance, next test would be to see how close to J performance. I think if the makers could use plastic vs Cu they would.
    Whatever!

  4. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Frankly your hardness testing results will be interesting. I'm testing to see how close I can get to GC performance, next test would be to see how close to J performance. I think if the makers could use plastic vs Cu they would.
    I fully agree. That is why I do not believe in 3200 ft/s painted bullets, with no GS, no leading.
    But when talking of relatively slow pistol bullets (versus rifle), like 9mm or .357, plastics do work, even normal HF Epoxy PC, with acetone.

    Normally bullet makers manufacture jacketed bullets with automatic machinery. And it goes really fast compared with this bucket/owen/ etc. system, also the quality is more consistent and a reloader does not have to be as careful while handling the bullets.

    So those are easier to sell to normal shooters.

    But we here are people who want to make all kinds of things at home.

    So for us these plastic coated are the most economical and easiest to make no-grease bullets.

  5. #1085
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    Thank you for your information and I agree that the method you mentioned would indicate the melting point of of different cured items. I was being general when I mentioned thermoset is thermoset. Because of the polymers used in the PC/Fusion bonded Epoxys with an average application the TG is around 200°C,time being the variable.The melting point is always higher than the tg,the melting is dependent on the substrates that make up the product.
    When I worked offshore we had pipeline fusion bonded epoxy's that reached their tg in 30 seconds and some took 20 minutes.
    Although I would like to keep researching other materials for thi application,I am looking forward to try Hi-tech

  6. #1086
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    I also wondered, when I was told by a company, that claimed to have used the HI-TEK coated projectiles successfully at 3100ft.sec.
    At least, that is what was reported, without supplying any further advice.
    I investigated possibility, and found that in US, there are alloys, and composites that are sold as being able to shoot at that that speed, with lubes, & without jacketing.
    It tended to reinforce possibility of what was advised, & may have been possible with the right alloy or composite.
    As I am aware that the HI-TEK-Supercoat does not melt or fuse with increase of heat, so I did not question any further the claimed possibility.
    Also, if as reported, if the HI-TEK coated projectiles survive 2600ft/sec, and leaves no residue, it tends to suggest that it already had been exposed to extreme frictional heat & forces and survived.
    I don't know how much additional frictional heat may be generated with an extra 500ft/sec.
    The rationale I am using is, that with such speeds, the resident time in the barrel is significantly decreased, and once velocity is reached there is very little drag or frictional heat being produced.
    I also agree, that for some applications, powder coating may work in some applications, but over many years, have seen very little data that confirmed success in wider applications.
    Last edited by HI-TEK; 06-06-2013 at 04:00 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #1087
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    When I shot my hi-tek coated bullets to jacketed velocity, I think my biggest problem was centrifugal force. I have a 1 in 9 barrel I was playing with. The bullets that made it to the target, blew up most impressively! Half did not get there. The last one I shot had the coating damaged while reloading. It leaded profusely. The bullets that were loaded correctly did not lead. They are working great at 2500 fps in my ar-15. Makes a great practice round. I think the claims of the coating have heat reflectivity are valid.
    Last edited by bmiller; 06-06-2013 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Spelling

  8. #1088
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    G'day. That is great news and a good result.
    What was your alloy BHN?
    Are you going to try a harder alloy?
    Thanks
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  9. #1089
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    I do not know the hardness. It is type metal I purchased at a scrap yard. I need to have it tested. At some point I am going to purchase some certified alloy.

  10. #1090
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    Wheeeew! This thread is almost unmanageable.

    I have read a bunch of it and have a question.

    I have tried acetone and the powder just sits in the bottom of the bottle! Shaking it suspends it but does NOT dissolve it as I expected.

    Same with lacquer thinner.

    Whaaaas up?

    Will MEK actually dissolve this HF powder into a paint consistency??? I was expecting it to be like thin paint when tumble coating.

    Please share your thoughts.

    I have a powder coating gun but it is a pain in the keester to use....poweder all over the place, spray booth needed, dust mask, fans, air compressor, etc.

    This liquid process, although VERY time consuming doing it 3 times, is not as intrusinve to your environment. After all ...."time is money".....and after ObamaScare....there is not much of that left either.

    Advise!

    THX.
    bangerjim

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by HI-TEK View Post
    I
    .....Also, if as reported, if the HI-TEK coated projectiles survive 2600ft/sec, and leaves no residue, it tends to suggest that it already had been exposed to extreme frictional heat & forces and survived.
    I don't know how much additional frictional heat may be generated with an extra 500ft/sec.
    .....
    I also agree, that for some applications, powder coating may work in some applications, but over many years, have seen very little data that confirmed success in wider applications.
    What do You mean by this "success in wider applications"?

    I have been totally happy with all my Epoxy powder coated pistol bullets.
    9mm and .357.

    Since Epoxy PC mixed with acetone works with those, it should work with almost every pistol bullet.

    It is also very economical, compared with any other smokeless method.

    There is very much data of Powder Coated bullets, if one knows how to use Google.
    Check ARES. They manufacture (in Europe) very popular lead bullets.

    PC mixed with Acetone is still PC.
    Actually I never heard of anybody who has tried this acetone method earlier, although it is very possible somebody has.

    Plastic coated bullets (with these bucket methods) are maybe no good for rifles, because the lead based alloy might disintegrate.
    Maybe Zinc might work? Although it is not so easy to cast.

  12. #1092
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    I tried hf powder in my rifle. I did not chrono, but they where approaching jacketed velocity. They left red streaks in my barrel. It was a pain to get it out! It seamed to work fine at more reasonable velocity.

  13. #1093
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Plastic coated bullets (with these bucket methods) are maybe no good for rifles, because the lead based alloy might disintegrate.
    Don't quite understand this. My pistol & rifle alloys are only different in the amount of Sb. So far so good in my 30-30 & 308, but I'm not doing 3K fps.
    Whatever!

  14. #1094
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    Piglet-I shot the 100 rounds today that I loaded over the weekend. No leading,smokeless,accurate. i'm happy with the performance.
    50 around 8-9 BHN/50 14-15 BHN

    Thanks
    Last edited by Frankv; 06-06-2013 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Typo

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Don't quite understand this. My pistol & rifle alloys are only different in the amount of Sb. So far so good in my 30-30 & 308, but I'm not doing 3K fps.
    I can only guess how PC would work with higher speeds, since I have not experimented with those.
    It is nice if it works for You, since then it surely works for others too.

    What do You have for 308 speed and how heavy are the bullets?

    Ares is selling painted bullets for rifles too. Seem to be Epoxy-coated.

    Check this: http://www.ares-gun.sk/?page=1

  16. #1096
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    bangerjim - I tried the PC & acetone and got a slush too (HF powder). Tried to touch up some of my rejects from this morning. It worked but not to my satisfaction. Note: I didn't tumble them, painted them, a single heavy coat. Coverage was almost complete but very lumpy. I think that it starts to kick off the cross-link by itself. Slopped some onto the vinyl work bench top. It doesn't come off when dry. I placed them base down to dry, stuck to the paper. They stuck to the PC'd tray when curing. I'll stick to the ES gun. Cast imperfections sure show up good when you've coated them. Little dings and dents, lead in the GC groove, etc. I thought I'd inspected pretty good.
    180 FB RD 30-30, same GC, 165 GC 308. Don't have a crony but the FB POI inch higher than my core-lok load @ 50. 308 prints a little higher than an 168 Amax load. Loads are ~ 70-80% jacketed loads, want to test the FB @ 80%. My GC loads are middle jacketed. I'm running the 40SW PCd @ full jacketed loads.
    Last edited by popper; 06-06-2013 at 03:19 PM.
    Whatever!

  17. #1097
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    popper-------you must be in my shop! Exactly what I had.

    Tried the 3 coat thing and it got worse each time.....lumpy, blotchy, not perrrrrrrty like the gun-coated slugs.

    I tried MEK this morning and it does NOT dissolve the powder either. What you are getting is an emulsion/suspension using the acetone/MEK/whatever as a volatile vehicle. Mine have blobs and voids in the coatings. And as I know from my years of wood-finishing, you can't hide defects with more coats of goop!!!!!!

    Lac thinner can vary from brand to brand, but acetone is acetone! Standard LT has a ton of acetone in it as well as tolulene, benzene, and other rather nasty stuff......that smells great and makes you feel reeeeeeeeeeeeel good!

    Does anyone else have any ideas????? A paint-on/tumble method would sure be nice.

    What DOES dissolve this darn stuff in poweder for? I have every solvent know to man in my shops and nothing will dissolve it......only suspend it for a short time.

    bangerjim

  18. #1098
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    bangerjim - not knocking the process, if it works for you, fine. I don't think it will dissolved, just as in any paint thinner, it is a carrier that evaporates. Dipping may work but how do you hold it? Piglet's tumble method is most practical. I think we both used too much acetone.
    Whatever!

  19. #1099
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    ?? My PC is really easy to mix with acetone. It is Epoxy, although not HF. And I am using a very thin mix.

  20. #1100
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    piglet-I used HF PC, worked fine using your process.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check