lead bullets coated with polymer paint

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

HI-TEK,
Based on the durability of the coating, it sounds like I should be able to use soft lead and not get leading (in a 9mm for example). Have you heard anyone doing this successfully? With lead wheel weights drying up, this would be huge.

I did a batch of soft swaged bullets for a friend of mine and they worked just fine.
D Miculek

[prickett]

Hi, The coating needs to dry, to release solvent from resin system.
It is flammable and needs to be removed before heating it in a electric or gas fired oven, where fire or an explosionmay occur if solvents are present as vapour.
We use a very fast drying solvent, and, drying rate can be improved with a simple fan directed over coated projectiles.
If you look at the U-Tube video, on do it yourself coating, it shows you that within 10-15 minutes,
at 25-30C the thin film is dry enough to bake.
Commercial users, cast several hundred thousand projectiles, then coat them, allow overnight to dry, and bake next day via wire meshed belt through fan forced Pizza type ovens.
As retention time is about 8-9 minutes and continuous, you can bake many thousand projectiles per day.
I have never heard any one having to sit coated projectiles unbaked for one month, as they cannot keep up with demand, and stocking such amounts only ties up cash flow.
After coating Drying, they want to sell as soon as possible and not store products.
Also, as the coating even though it is dry, it does not adhere fully and permanently to alloy until baking is carried out. Baking is the key, to a very successful fusion adhesion of coating to alloy.

I am wondering, why you would consider storing coated and unbaked projectiles for a month?
Joe

HI-TEK,
I'm not a company with a huge baking oven, I'm just an individual coating for my own use. I want to coat everything at once, to minimize waste of the coating. Using a small oven, I'm limited to how many boolits I can cook. So, I'm thinking that I'll probably have coated boolits accumulating faster than I can cook them.

[HI-TEK]

HI-TEK,
I'm not a company with a huge baking oven, I'm just an individual coating for my own use. I want to coat everything at once, to minimize waste of the coating. Using a small oven, I'm limited to how many boolits I can cook. So, I'm thinking that I'll probably have coated boolits accumulating faster than I can cook them.

I fully understand your needs. When coating, you only need to make up enough coating materials to use up for the projectiles you have made up.
You do not need to make up a whole lot of coating, as a small amount goes a long way.
Below is a U-Tube vide, where a hobbyist set up, explains coating and baking process for small user. This should provide some answers.
The catalysed, diluted coating mixture, if kept cool and out of sunlight, can be used up in several days. I always recomend that make up just enough to use in 2 or 3 days. I have heard that some users coated with mixture over a week after they made up the brew.
Please have a look at videos and send me a reply if you need any further help.

YouTube videos:
Part1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VevKJgHseWc
Part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU7PbbtbAtE
Joe

[leadman]

Hi-Tek, covering the base of the powder coated bullet does not seems to be an issue, think of the jacketed fmj bullet with exposed lead on the base. Also you can powder coat a bullet several times if you want so doing the entire bullet is possible. I have fired 8 bhn 30 caliber bullets with no gas check over 1,600 fps with excellent accuracy and no leading. The cost of doing the powder coating is more than I would like and the handling of the coated bullets to the oven is also another issue that makes it slow. The screens I use to set the bullets on to be powder coated can easily be cleaned with a propane torch as the powder coat burns and is easily removed with a wire brush. Much more money would need to be invested to increase the production to what I would like.

With all that said I think from what I gained from my talk with Donnie that using your process will be faster and hopefully cheaper in the long run. I like that there is no necessity to orient the bullets for drying on the screen. Also sizing should be easier as there will be no concern with the thick powder coat or "wings" from the screen wires to contend with prior to sizing.

[HDS]

I would have liked to have tried it out as well, but with the lack of a dealer here it will simply be far too expensive. Cheaper to powder coat.

[HDS]

I got an answer from Ares today, no kits available and they said the maximum speed for their coatings where 550m/s, which is around 1800FPS.

[morrisammo]

I did a batch of soft swaged bullets for a friend of mine and they worked just fine.
D Miculek

Hey,,, Swamprat,,, I've e-mailed you,,, I'm looking to buy some bullet,, juice,, when you get some more,,

I might have missed it,,, but has this coating been used on a 223 cast bullet,,, ??? and shooting it out of an AR?????

did the bullets shoot OK??? with no gas check? if they are 50 yard, capable,,,

I SOOOO want to try,, this, much of the shooting in 3 Gun is 50 yards or less. with three kids and my wife, shooting 3 Gun,, I could save a ton!!$$$

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek, covering the base of the powder coated bullet does not seems to be an issue, think of the jacketed fmj bullet with exposed lead on the base. Also you can powder coat a bullet several times if you want so doing the entire bullet is possible. I have fired 8 bhn 30 caliber bullets with no gas check over 1,600 fps with excellent accuracy and no leading. The cost of doing the powder coating is more than I would like and the handling of the coated bullets to the oven is also another issue that makes it slow. The screens I use to set the bullets on to be powder coated can easily be cleaned with a propane torch as the powder coat burns and is easily removed with a wire brush. Much more money would need to be invested to increase the production to what I would like.

With all that said I think from what I gained from my talk with Donnie that using your process will be faster and hopefully cheaper in the long run. I like that there is no necessity to orient the bullets for drying on the screen. Also sizing should be easier as there will be no concern with the thick powder coat or "wings" from the screen wires to contend with prior to sizing.

Hi,
I would like to ask, if you have done any testing on any powder coated projectiles with the hammer impact test. Simply, place a coated projectile on a surface and pound it with a large hammer. If coating has stuck well to the alloy it should not crack from impact deformation.
Many consider, that due to high deformation ability of alloy, the lube or coating, should stay put on alloy, to separate surfaces in a gun, in order to get best ability to separate surfaces.
I have posted picture of such tests done with the HI-TEK coating.
Attached again for your reference
With your reference to cleaning up cured powder coating on mesh, by burning the baked coating with a burner. That seems a lot of work each time, for little volume production.
I have had many reports from people who had recycled HI-TEK coated projectiles, where the coated alloy was placed on top of molten Lead, and, when the projectile melted, they saw that the coating remained, floating intact, on surface of the molten Lead, in the shape of the original projectile.
With the HI-TEK coating, surfaces/containers, that are not baked, and are coated with the uncured coating, can be simply washed back into mixture, and used for coating.
Once baked, the HI-TEK coating cannot be re-solubilised and recycled and resists heat well.
It may be a good for an experiment, just to place a Powdered coated projectile into melted Lead to see what happens.

[bmiller]

I have recycled powder coated bullets. It burns right off.

[popper]

Mine didn't burn off the coating (HF), it just floated to the top and was skimmed off. Pot was ~ 800F.

[bmiller]

What color was it?

[HI-TEK]

Hi,
Thanks for reply.
The reasons why the end of projectiles needs to be protected, is why they use Gas Checks.
Heat from gun powder can melt ends of alloy if directly exposed to the heat.
This seems worse when high energy powders are used.
Either you use powder coatings or any other coating, this film tends to reflect back heat generated from powder burning which protects the rear of the alloy.
I have had reports from people, who used HI-TEK-LUBE coated projectiles, they recovered the pill, and the end was black. They simply wiped it with a wet rag and the green coating was intact and no damage to coating or alloy, and they did not use any gas checks.
The blackness on the ends was only powder residues.
I would be interested to learn if you had been able to recover any fired projectiles that was powder coated, fired without gas check, and examine end of alloy where it was uncoated.
Sounds like Donnie was helful with your enquiry.
Hope all goes well.

[popper]

bmiller - white. i have red and black but haven't used them yet.

[bmiller]

I only have red. Pushed 22 cal bullets too hard in my 224 bolt gun and had pretty red streaks in my barrel! Looking forward to trying the hi- tek product. I used sandstrom 9a coated 22 cal bullets last weekend with my standard load. They worked fine. At that velocity, so did powder coated and conventional lubed bullets. So far just using regular lube it getting acceptable results with the least number of steps. If the hi-tek will work without gas checks, it would be an answer to my prayers! I hate putting little tiny checks on little tiny bullets!

[popper]

Did you ever get that red out?

[bmiller]

Yes, I used a copper chore boy, hoppes, kroil, some other ammonia based product and shot a bunch of jacketed bullets. It was STUBBORN!!!

[HI-TEK]

Have you looked at safety data of the Sandstrom 9a product?
It is something that is needed to be read and is available on the net.
It contains Dibasic Lead Phosphite, and Antimony Oxide.
Basic search of Dibasic Lead Phosphite material safety data, lists this material as toxic by inhalation absorption and ingestion, and is also considered carcinogenic.
Antimony Oxide is also not that good either.
I am sure that the 9a is an excellent product, but possibly not for this type of end use application.
In the event any dust becomes available as airborne dust it may be not good to inhale.
Contact with skin of coating or mists from spraying, whilst using it also may not be so good either.
Even though the HI-TEK coating is solvent based and is also not good to expose to skin and not good to drink, and no good to inhale solvent fumes, it contains no heavy metals or nasty pigments that may be a concern.

[bmiller]

I read the safety sheet when I bought the product. It did not scare me as bad as you are now. I am not a chemist. When I purchased the product, the sandstrom person said it was used to coat 40 million bullets a year. They did tell me don't breathe the fumes, and use in a well ventilated area. I guess I will bug Donnie again about your product.

[HI-TEK]

I read the safety sheet when I bought the product. It did not scare me as bad as you are now. I am not a chemist. When I purchased the product, the sandstrom person said it was used to coat 40 million bullets a year. They did tell me don't breathe the fumes, and use in a well ventilated area. I guess I will bug Donnie again about your product.

My apology if I made you concerned.
My concerns that were provided was not designed to scaremonger at all.
Until I read the data sheets on this product, and then investigated some other details, only then I became a bit concerned about things.
I am an Industrial chemist, and more than often I examine many things in detail, and possibly more than general person.
I have seen over many years many things being done in industry.
Here, industrial products were also used, as lubes. Some contained Chromates.
As coatings, they were excellent, but handling them and using them in certain applications was a different thing all together.
I have heard comments made by various persons over the years, that using coatings with materials that contained potentially nasties, the coating trapped and locked in the harmful ingredients after cure, and these materials were not available after coating was cured.
Such comments and generalisations may be questioned.
The HI-TEK stuff, also is a product that has in it resins and additives that is generally recomended for industrial use, but also they should not be exposed to skin, inhalation and ingestion. Adequate and all due care must be exercised when using any chemical type systems.
Even solvent based household paints, automotive types as well, although sold in shops to general public, are not really recomended as being safe items and adequate warnings are in fact provided.
I remember household paints sold as best in the world for many years, contained Lead salts (Lead Napthanates, and Lead Octoates, and other types) and Lead Oxides, to prevent timber and other surfaces from being damaged by either termites and mould and fungus and Rot and weather.
Only years after use of many tonnes of similar product types, it was discovered that people were getting poisoned by the Lead in the paint especially when sanding and repainting was required.
I suppose, I have become a little paranoid about things due my background. I always try to advise people to be cautious when using any materials which may be harmful.
Apology for any uneasiness caused by my comments.

[bmiller]

No problem Joe. I appreciate your knowledge.