Still doesn't change the fact it could be stamped "purple" and the ATF still calls it a rifle.
the ATF has no legal description or definition of "carbine" as Mike insinuated to above.
Even a Transferrable is classed as a rifle, on the 4473 form, when it's clearly on the NFA list and Class 3 taxable.
Here's an AR15 pistol:
Do you see any way to hold it other then as a pistol? No
To further complicate things the ATF says putting any rifle holding device on it, such as stock or forearm then constitutes it as a short barreled rifle. Of course the military would call that a carbine.
If it was a pistol the lower will be stamped that way. If it was a rifle the lower will be stamped that way. What are you not understanding.....they do mark them they don't have to color them.
I think you just cleared that up for yourself.
3 types of firearms to be recorded on a 4473.
Long gun
Pistol
Other.
No carbine found.
Ergo, Carbine is not an accepted definition of a firearm in the eyes of the ATF.
It's a pistol, Long gun or Other.
I'd have my rear in a sling next audit I put "carbine" on my side of a 4473.
That's correct about the ATF and it's for record keeping. It's not in the eyes of the Army. So I reckon if you're in the Army and your superior tells you to go get a carbine and bring it back to him that you would pick up a rifle, right?
We can take up a petition and request that ATF that we want them to rewrite the 4473 that we want a specific description of or firearms arms on there...such as.....Model 94 Winchester Carbine with 20 inche barrel, Model 94 Winchester Carbien with 16 inch barrel, Model 94 Winchester Rife with 24 inch barrel, Model 94 Winchester Rife with 26 inch barrel. I'm sure they will oblige us.
Mike didn't say anything about the Eyes of the army, just the Eyes of the BATFE.Originally Posted by StarMetal
I know common definition of a carbine is a barrel sub 20". Matters not if it was based on a longer platform.
an AK is a Carbine.
An SKS is a rifle.
An AR platform can be both, depending on barrel length.
ATF still says all of those are "Long guns"(assuming AR has a provision for mounting a buttstock, if not, that AR is a pistol)
sorry, i did not see the spot where i said batf defined a carbine.......
only accurate rifles are interesting
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...9&postcount=16
First line in this post.
"You are not the ATF"
ATF makes no definition of Carbine, so what he calls it is immaterial to what it's defined as.
another person that cannot stay in context........
lets look again
we are talking about carbines and rifles....
the respondents says something is a pistol...an out of context answer to the subject, and now you claim i said.....
i said he was not the batf...thats all and WENT BACK TO THE SUBJECT...RIFLES AND CARBINES.
i clearly stated that it was a rifle, but the carbine version.
THE SUBJECT is one mans aged opinion that only long bbls are rifles and all else is a carbine, thus the m16a2 is a carbine by him, but not by the army, the air force, the navy , the coast guard and the marines, and the nearly everyone else in this modern day.
it is a moving definiton...he has not moced with the times ,plain and simple.
mike in co
only accurate rifles are interesting
so i should thank you for proving the other guy wrong...there are NO CARBINES....
ARE YOU WILLING TO PUT YOUR BUTT ON THE LINE AND CLAIM THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CARBINE........?????
( or would you rather get back in context and on subject, is the m16a2 a rifle or a carbine ?)
YOU ARE FUNNY
again i suggest you stay on topic IN CONTEXT
only accurate rifles are interesting
According to the ATF, there IS no such thing as a Carbine.
It's Long gun, Pistol or Other.
Are you suggesting I call in a 4473 and say "carbine" when asked what type of firearm it is?
I already know what that'll tell me.
"that is not a valid answer. Please repeat firearm type"
An M16A2 is a rifle. M4 is a "carbine LENGTH" rifle.
Common vernacular aside, in my business, if the ATF says it's something, that's what it is. Regardless of what the common name for it is.
Anything that isn't a pistol or shotgun is a long gun. Carbine is a subcategory of a long gun. Maybe the ATF should change it to only require gun? After all they have more details on it in other blocks and the serial # so they very well know what it is.
Does the ATF actually say this? Or is it simply a matter of their not making a distinction between rifles and carbines?According to the ATF, there IS no such thing as a Carbine.
It's Long gun, Pistol or Other.
The AFT is regulatory, not the end all and be all in defining firearms nomenclature.
Pre to early 20th century a rifle with barrel as long as 22 inches would be a carbine. In France the term Carabin meant any handy rifle regardless of length, a sporting rifle as long as a Pennsylvania rifle would still be a carabin as opposed to the musket and musketoon which later was more nearly carbine length.
The Gendarme Carbine was any short rifle that was used as a easier to hit with substitute for the handgun. That definition is the one applied to our US M1 .30 Carbine.
The British considered SMGs to be "Machine Carbines".
The major user of the M4 Carbine is the US military so their terminology trumps all in that case.
The M16 Rifle is by civilian sporter terminology a short rifle, 20-22 inch. Before 1903 and for some time afterwards rifles with barrels shorter than 26 inches would be considered as "Short Rifles". Classic example is the Short Magazine Lee Enfield, with short denoting barrel and overall length compared to the standard Lee Enfield. British publications often labeled the 1903 Springfield as a Short Rifle as well, though both are now well within the modern definition of a full length rifle.
PS
The shorten tubes of the M4 carbine are responsible for greatly reduced stopping power and wounding effects compared to the M16. This has been the subject of numerous studies run by the military. Its a fact not in doubt.
The shorter barrels can cut up to 500 fps off the striking velocity at any range the M4 is used.
I like the handy qualities of the short 16 inch CAR Sporter, I've had the pleasure of firing a prime Colt manufactured example of this little carbine years ago. But its penetration is laughable and theres no wind bucking ability to speak of.
Carbines of this class are more deadly than a 9mm SMG but a long way from being a good substitute for a battle rifle.
A 5.56 cartridge with bullet and powders re-engineered practically from the ground up specifically for the 14 inch barrel might allow better efficiency from the M4, and those who own these SBR or AR pistols and handload for them should make the results known.
Last edited by Multigunner; 06-30-2010 at 04:17 AM. Reason: correcting typo
I feel they should go to pre 68 rules, but they don't listen to me.
Folding up the ATF would be a good idea. Look at the money the government would save.I feel they should go to pre 68 rules, but they don't listen to me.
well as long as you are going to stayOFF TOPIC... DUH
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE ATF....
WAKE UP
you are in the past like the other guy.
again , back on topic, its about his definition of rifle and carbine,....not the BATF..
READ MY LIPS , it is not about the batf...that only came up when he went OFF TOPIC.
THE TOPIC IS """" what is a carbine, what is a rifle...as refers to the military m16 with a 20" bbl...that would be an m16a2"""""""."
end of subject
notice no reference to any batf.......
and thank gawd...you answered that very question:
"An M16A2 is a rifle. M4 is a "carbine LENGTH" rifle."
its over....you said it...thanks
mike in co
only accurate rifles are interesting
Mike the topic is what the OP posted. He was looking to chose between a CAR-16” and a mid length. Mid lengths have 16 or 18 inch barrels. I simply tried to point out that a 20” barrel is plenty short and is in fact a carbine length rifle already. Then I mentioned if you get a 20" with no flash hider it's approximately as short as an 18" with attatchment. All on topic as far as I can tell. I seriously do not care what the Army labels M16's as. We are after all taking about a bunch of politicians and in the case of the AR-15 the Wiz Kids. Before that salesman called the AR whatever they thought would make the sale of Stoner's new thing. Salesmen do not define mechanics any more that Rolling Stones Reporters decide who is a good General.
A 20” barrel is a carbine length barrel. An 11 ½ inch M4 barrel is a pistol length barrel. You may have an argument point as to weather a 14.5” is a carbine or pistol length as the line is blurred. There has never been an M16 battle rifle issued. I don't care what they call it. I like my AR's very much but they are not battle rifles. They are carbines. Perhaps the best carbine ever made. No amount of BS will change the facat that no 5.56mm is a battle rifle. An AK 47 is also not a battle rifle. Please do not retread how I'm not keeping up with the times. BS is BS. I do not care how many years it goes on for.
Also I stated quite clear the reason I loath shorty M16's is my hearing loss tinnitis condition. In addition to hearing 48 db ring all the time it makes one more sensitive to the muzzle blast. Again I do not think it's from my shooting sport but rather factory work. Sensitivity to muzzle blast is not psychological it's a physical thing. It actually hurts a tiny bit. Over and over. When one of the LEO's shows up at the range and there are twelve benches but they set up next to you since they are sociable nice guys looking to have a good time. It's hard since I like to talk myself and like them but can't stand the issue blasters they show up with. So I just tough it out. Again the battery powered head phones are great items. But just like shooting prairie dogs all day you are beat to a pulp after an afternoon of that M4 blast. It's kind of like a drug with side effects. Supposedly there are benefits but do they out weigh the side effects. When I read a post from a man trying to decide what length AR barrel to shoot it's my opinion he should go with a full 20”. I've stated reasons why I have that opinion.
The assault Rifle concept certainly muddied the waters.
Its like the Karabiner 98a being a Carbine while the identical length Kar 98 is a battle rifle.
The concept of what makes a rifle is in flux. OAL went out the window with the first Bull Pup conversions of the Lee Enfield and Springfield 1903 rifles. Now some full length barreled rifles are no longer than some pistol carbines.
For anyone considering building or buying an AR, I would suggest research at
m4carbine.net
The guys who frequent there run their guns hard and eat sleep and breath the AR platform. There's lots and lots of good information.
assault rifle would be a good description of an M16. Term is so loaded down with social baggage I shrink from using it.
30 caliber US M1 Carbine has an 18” barrel. M1 30-06 Battle Rifle it worked next to had a 24" barrel. US Army rejected a shorter barrel version due to muzzle balst. Springfield Armory marketed a Tanker M1 with short barrel back around the 1980's but it was never an issued rifle. Back then the Army had more sense that that.
Ok, not to butt in but the original topic was about the position of the gas port, NOT about length of the barrel.
Carbine length might be better for shooting boolits (higher pressure, more dwell time with fast pistol powders) but mid-length will be easier on the gun and shooter due to reduced bcg velocity from lower pressure/dwell time at the port.
Guys come on, the fighting is really not necessary.
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