CAR or mid length AR

[Firebricker]

I was checking on 16" CAR upper reciever assembly's and a supplier suggested going mid length. He said the couple extra inches of gas tube would make it cycle smoother.

But I have also been told a heavier buffer will do the same thing. I'm totally new to AR's so I have no idea how big of a differance it would make.

So I'd like to know what you guy's think. I like the look's of the CAR length handguards better but that's no big deal much more concerned with which would better. Thank's in advance FB

[Eagles6]

It's commonly said that the 5.56 round is optimal out of a 20 inch barrel and that problems that the military have is because they use the shorter barrel on the M4s.
Don't know if it's true but something to check out on the AR15 boards.

[GabbyM]

I personally loath 16 inch barrel AR's. If length is that big a deal think about a 20" barrel with no flash hider. Deleting the flash hider will reduce muzzle blast off to the sides and I believe back at the shooter as well. All while cutting an inch or so off the O.L. 20 inch AR's are carbines after all not a rifle.

16” barrel AR's are a recipe for hearing loss. Due to horrible muzzle blast. As I've stated before on this forum I have ringing of the ears and it is not a good thing. Yes this does give me an attitude. Mine I think is factory work. My father thinks his is from straight pipe tractors but it may have been M2's out the side door of H17's. He'd never blame anything on the corps as it's just not the way old Marines think.

What I'm getting at is don't think you can shoot a machine pistol with a two foot muzzle flame and not suffer the effects of that blast. Put a barrel on that thing.

FYI : Shotguns reach max velocity within 12 to 14 inches of barrel length. We use long 28 to 30 inch barrels to save us from self mutilation. In other words the long barrels on shotguns are only there as a hearing protection device. Well that and they are much more gentlemanly in presentation.

2nd FYI: Don't anyone give me any of that hooplaw about wearing ear plugs. They only afford a margin of protection and that's if you think you will never shoot nine shots in your life without them. I despise 16" barrel rifle caliber guns. Your opinion may vary. I wore 17 db ear plugs in the factory but sound levels were past the point 17 DB would save you 100%. The old guys I worked with whom had worked through the forties and fifties with no hearing protection all wore hearing aids so they could talk to people. I mean all of them not just a few.
Head phones or ear muffs should work to protect I'd think. Electronic head phones are the best invention in shooting sports in fifty years.

My drum is about worn out now.

[deltaenterprizes]

If I plan on having to carry it I want the 16'', for the range and plinking the longer barrel will work.

[Combat Diver]

As stated the long gas tube was designed for the 20", however the carbine gas tube was designed for a 10.5/11.5 for the XM177 submachine gun. I never had a problem with a 14.5" M4A1 for the 13 years that I carried one in service (95-08). My personnel AR has a pinned 14.5" bbl by going to a 16" with full auto can lead to trouble but in semi not really a problem if set up properly. It all boils down to personal preference in my opion.

[StarMetal]

There are three gas tube lengths...the rifle, the carbine, and mid length.

The short barreled AR's run pretty good. It's when you go full auto or put a can on them that things change.

I wouldn't add a heavier buffer because it slams the bolt/carrier group harder against the barrel extension.

The short barrel will be louder and that is true of any short barrel rifle. The flash hiders aren't compensaters and don't direct the gas back towards you, but they do spread it around a making the blast louder. With a particularly loud firearm you should wear ear plugs and muffs both. Some people don't realize that with just wearing earplugs sound also travels to inside the ear through the skull bone structure. This is where muffs are better as they cover a wider area around the outside of the ear.

[dualsport]

All good advice. Ear plugs AND muffs is the ticket when shooting. At the range even if your barrel is longer the guy next to you will show up with something gawdawful that pierces your eardrums. On the length question, ar15.com is chock full of ar info. You don't want tinitus(ringing), once it starts that's it, it never stops, believe me it's unpleasant. Long term exposure to loud noise will do it too, but gunfire and explosions can get you there real quick. My son's a combat vet, almost daily exposure for months, his ears are as bad as mine, I'm 56, he's 24. I've known people who's lives were literally ruined by tinitus. Protect your ears, always.

[mike in co]

It's commonly said that the 5.56 round is optimal out of a 20 inch barrel and that problems that the military have is because they use the shorter barrel on the M4s.
Don't know if it's true but something to check out on the AR15 boards.

i like that....lol

"commonly said"

right by who ????

never heard it before in my life.....

[mike in co]

I was checking on 16" CAR upper reciever assembly's and a supplier suggested going mid length. He said the couple extra inches of gas tube would make it cycle smoother.

But I have also been told a heavier buffer will do the same thing. I'm totally new to AR's so I have no idea how big of a differance it would make.

So I'd like to know what you guy's think. I like the look's of the CAR length handguards better but that's no big deal much more concerned with which would better. Thank's in advance FB

it aint my gun its yours...what do you plan on doing with it ???

i shoot 17.5 and 18s from rifle handguards.

just got two 16's in carbine config.

its more about your plans than anything else.

mike in co

[mike in co]

. 20 inch AR's are carbines after all not a rifle.

sorry but wrong.
20" m16's/ar15's are RIFLES
16"s are carbines.

the term moves with the times.
in 1891 the 31" bbls were rifles, and then cut down to high 20s as rifles, while 38's with 20" bbls were carbines.

the m14 and garand are both 22( iirc) as rifles.

things change..the definition of rifle and carbine is a moving target.

generically speaking, a carbine is a shorter bbl version of the current rifle.

if a 20 ar is a carbine , what is a 14.5 " ??
mike in co

[StarMetal]

i like that....lol

"commonly said"

right by who ????

never heard it before in my life.....

Eugene Stoner

[Firebricker]

Thank's to you all for your input. Looks like it's not going to make a huge differance either way. The gun's mainly going to be a plinker and to carry when hanging tree stands for ground hogs. So it's just going to be a handy carbine that's fun to shoot.

This AR will also replace my mini-14 I traded off. Leaning towards the RRA mid-length it will be a week or two before I order so I still of time to research and think it over.

Thanks again, FB

[GabbyM]

sorry but wrong.
20" m16's/ar15's are RIFLES
16"s are carbines.

the term moves with the times.
in 1891 the 31" bbls were rifles, and then cut down to high 20s as rifles, while 38's with 20" bbls were carbines.

the m14 and garand are both 22( iirc) as rifles.

things change..the definition of rifle and carbine is a moving target.

generically speaking, a carbine is a shorter bbl version of the current rifle.

if a 20 ar is a carbine , what is a 14.5 " ??
mike in co

I call a 14.5 inch barrel a pistol. Just like the Germans called the MP-40 a machine pistol. It's all in a name that's somewhat meaningless but for description. In my eye a 20” barrel is a carbine barrel. We still call Win 94's and Marlin 336's with 20” a carbine don't we. Of course if you tell some one you have an AR carbine they'll think you are talking about a 16” barrel. So we call the 20” a rifle. But it's still a carbine. Most descriptive term for the Army M4 is probably to just call it an M4 and forget the fine description.

[Moonie]

My son and I built a 16" AR and went with the mid-length gas tube. We fired it side by side with one with a carbine length, the mid-length cycled smoother and had less recoil, noticeably less, everything else was the same, weight was about the same, same flash hider.

I'd go mid-length again in a heart beat.

[StarMetal]

I call a 14.5 inch barrel a pistol. Just like the Germans called the MP-40 a machine pistol. It's all in a name that's somewhat meaningless but for description. In my eye a 20” barrel is a carbine barrel. We still call Win 94's and Marlin 336's with 20” a carbine don't we. Of course if you tell some one you have an AR carbine they'll think you are talking about a 16” barrel. So we call the 20” a rifle. But it's still a carbine. Most descriptive term for the Army M4 is probably to just call it an M4 and forget the fine description.

That's because the 94's and 336's were first long barreled rifles, then they cut the barrels down to make them handier...thus carbines.

The German MP38 had a much much shorter barrel on them then 14.5 inches. Germans also had a thing not to call firearms like those submachine guns.

An AR15 pistol is marked such by regulations from the ATF and you can't use the lower receiver for anything else.

[mike in co]

I call a 14.5 inch barrel a pistol. Just like the Germans called the MP-40 a machine pistol. It's all in a name that's somewhat meaningless but for description. In my eye a 20” barrel is a carbine barrel. We still call Win 94's and Marlin 336's with 20” a carbine don't we. Of course if you tell some one you have an AR carbine they'll think you are talking about a 16” barrel. So we call the 20” a rifle. But it's still a carbine. Most descriptive term for the Army M4 is probably to just call it an M4 and forget the fine description.

yes but you are not the batf...

a 14.5 with a fixed flash hider is still a rifle by batf, and a carbine version of an ar.( WE WERE TALKING ABOUT RIFLES AND CARBINES, NOT PISTOLS so dont take my question out of context)

now you want to mix apples and oranges.....
go read what star said....

a long bbld 1891 is a rifle, when cut to 20 its a carbine( with in its family)

a lever gun in 24 inches is a rifle and when shortened to 20/16 its a carbine( in its family)

an ar began life as a 20 rifle( ask uncle sam...its a rifle), when shortened to 16 they are carbines as are 14.5's with permanent flashhiders to make 16".......less is a pistol, legal or otherwise.

again calling it what you want, dont make it so...facts are facts.

mike in co

[Storydude]

Please show me where BATFE makes a distinction between pistol, shotgun, rifle and CARBINE.


Last time I looked in my Big Blue book, there were 3 classes of firearm.
Pistol
Long gun
Other.

Pistol is no buttstock, and marked as such.

Long gun is rifle/shotgun in ANY length beyond 16" for centerfire and 18" for shotgun.

Other is a bare receiver, NOT made into a firearm as of yet.

no Carbine designation found.

[StarMetal]

Please show me where BATFE makes a distinction between pistol, shotgun, rifle and CARBINE.


Last time I looked in my Big Blue book, there were 3 classes of firearm.
Pistol
Long gun
Other.

Pistol is no buttstock, and marked as such.

Long gun is rifle/shotgun in ANY length beyond 16" for centerfire and 18" for shotgun.

Other is a bare receiver, NOT made into a firearm as of yet.

no Carbine designation found.

Assembling a short barreled AR-15

Under U.S. firearms laws, only the lower receiver of the AR-15 is considered a firearm and subject to purchasing restrictions. (This is not universally the case with rifles. On some other rifles, such as the FN-FAL, the upper is the serial-numbered part, and thus the firearm.) The upper receiver assembly is simply considered a part, and may be freely purchased and mail-ordered in most locations. This is a very attractive feature for enthusiasts, who can purchase a number of upper receivers (often in different calibers) and interchange them with the same lower receiver. However, one must be thoroughly familiar with firearms laws before doing this as it is possible to make a configuration that requires a special approval or tax stamp or a configuration that is illegal under state law.
For example, an 11" barrel with only a pistol grip is a legal handgun in most locations. Adding a shoulder stock to an AR-15 with a barrel shorter than 16" would constitute constructing a Short-Barreled Rifle (SBR) under NFA rules - subjective to a $200 tax stamp. Constructing an AR-15 pistol using a lower receiver which had already been designated a rifle or described as such on an ATF form 4473 would constitute the construction of a firearm, since the pistol was constructed from an existing rifle. It is a felony to assemble, possess, or transfer such a weapon without obtaining ATF approval (subject to state approval) and the corresponding $200 tax stamp. If a lower receiver is designated and transferred as a pistol, you are disallowed from installing a butt stock or a forward pistol grip, as the former would render it an SBR (short barreled rifle), with the latter effectively constructing an AOW (Any Other Weapon) requiring the ATF approval and tax stamp.

[Storydude]

SBR is still classed as a Rifle. not Carbine.

Just like SBS is still a shotgun, unless it's a DD or AOW.

[StarMetal]

SBR is still classed as a Rifle. not Carbine.

Just like SBS is still a shotgun, unless it's a DD or AOW.

It's classified that way because it has a rifle receiver such stamped. Understand now? It's sort of the same with TC Contenders and rifles. You run into legal problems with them switching frames in certain manners. The military names the M4, for example, as a carbine, not a rifle.

If you build an AR15 on a M16 lower receiver, it's classified as a Class III gun, even though it's a semi automatic rifle.

Oh almost forgot, not knocking you or upset or anything, Just seeing if you understand what I'm saying.