The use of fillers

[StarMetal]

Jim,

To tell you the truth I don't think you will find out at what velocity it will strip at. I've been shooting the 6.5 Swede, the 6.5 Grendel, the 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenaur, and my Colt HBAR and the twists on those are 7.8, 8.0, 8.0, and 7....I'm using 50/50 alloy that is WW/pure-lead both air cooled and water dropped and haven't stripped any at high velocity. So don't worry about that unless you start shooting pure lead which I don't think you will out of the Garand.

By the way 1900 fps is about the bracket I stay in with my 06's with various powders.

[jimr]

I fired another set through the chrono today. The 10 without a filler i tilted the barrel straight up an gently set her back on the sand bag, the 10 with a dacron filler were laoded out of the clip also but did not tilt it up
With filler without filler
1..1951 TW52 case 2003 TW52
2..1879 TW52 2003 TW52
3..1883 TW52 1992 TW52
4..1955 TW52 1987 TW52
5..1954 TW52 2007 TW52
6..1968 TW52 1995 TW52
7..1928 TW52 2010 TW52
8..1860 KA73 2012 KA73
9..1860 KA73 1993 KA73
10..1994 KA73 2001 KA73

av. 1923 with 2000 without
Each set of 10 was started with a cold barrel. The group with the dacron filler was twice as good or better then the ones without.

Jim

[StarMetal]

Thanks Jim, looks like tilting back the loads without filler made an increase in velocity. Great test well done.

[jimr]

Yes in fact there was an increase in velocity there slso was a de-crease in accuracy . As with the test yesterday the accuracy was about the same without tilting the barrel up an both of yesterday's velocity were in the low 1900s.. Looks like as the velocity approched the 2000 mark the group was getting larger.
Now this might be dirrerent in another rifle but that's what this garand says. So i see options of both ways, with or without.
I love this job, my last one sucked.

Jim

[Larry Gibson]

jimr

"Looks like as the velocity approched the 2000 mark the group was getting larger."

That is an old story with an obvious reason for the answer but I'm not going there.

Good on you to have done the testing for yourself and found that the use of the dacron filler with a medium powder in the '06 does improve accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Jim,

Are you going to stick with that powder or are you going to try another?

You may be able to find a sweet spot at a higher velocity. Here is a target from my Finn39 using a 200 grain 314299 at 100 yards. It's the hole at the top right that is larger then the two green colored ones below it. That's 10 shots into that one hole. The rifle is scoped and that load is consistent. The Finn39 has the same rifling twist as your Garand. I know the Finn39 isn't a gas operated Garand but it has the same twist is near identical bore. That load was well over 2000 fps. It's just to show you that your rifle is capable of good cast accuracy at higher velocity should you want to go there.

[jimr]

I believe i will try some higher velocity loads in the garand. As i have found before most rifles have more the one sweet spot. I do have several different powders to try. As for the bullet i am going to locate a 180-200gr. mold. Up until the garand my casting was for handguns an the M1 carbine with great results.

When i first started casting i believe a Lyman 2 cavity cost around $10 or so, my have things have changed.

Jim

[Lead Fred]

I use powder, .030 veggie wad, dacron filler, in a 45-70.
The wad ensures that the filler does not heat up at all.

We have recovered both the wads and filler. Id not use filler without a wad.
In a bottle neck case, I have no idea how you could do this.

[StarMetal]

I believe i will try some higher velocity loads in the garand. As i have found before most rifles have more the one sweet spot. I do have several different powders to try. As for the bullet i am going to locate a 180-200gr. mold. Up until the garand my casting was for handguns an the M1 carbine with great results.

When i first started casting i believe a Lyman 2 cavity cost around $10 or so, my have things have changed.

Jim

Jim,

That's true about the sweet spot. Glad to hear you are going to give it a go to higher velocity.

Hey if you bought those Lyman molds at $10 I'll bet there are a whole host of new powders on the market since then huh?

[StarMetal]

I use powder, .030 veggie wad, dacron filler, in a 45-70.
The wad ensures that the filler does not heat up at all.

We have recovered both the wads and filler. Id not use filler without a wad.
In a bottle neck case, I have no idea how you could do this.

Fred,

I'm not going to change your mind but you really don't need a wad in a bottleneck cartridge. I really think you are treading on dangerous grounds with wads and filler both. I will agree with the old straight wall 45-70 and other such cartridges wads were used very effectively, when used correctly.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have a question about T/P filler in the 40/65 for all of you to consider.

My load is conventional with the SAECO 65640 over 18 grains 4759 in a rebarreled Marlin M1895. The load has a 0.050 card under the bullet and 1/4 sheet of Charmin "Extra Soft" filler to position the powder for consistent ignition, as discussed.

The load is proven accurate and I use the rifle for competition at the Quigley Match.

One day I was shooting up there in Forsyth, getting sight elevations for the next day's match. I fired and attempted operate the action. It was jammed ~ the spent case had ejected normally but then the follower would not move either up or down.

Right there on the firing line I disassembled the action with my Swiss Army knife and out came a hard, compressed, round piece of T/P which had lodged in the action, jamming it.

I looked at it in amazement, knowing it HAD to be my filler that somehow had not exited the barrel normally during firing and then, as I tilted the rifle up to eject the spent case the piece of wadding rolled down into the action, jamming it.

My question is; how is it possibly possible for the powder gasses to miss blowing the T/P right out the barrel? And besides that, compress it to a hard lump that would then (quite likely) either roll out the breech as mine did or form an obstruction for the next round to be fired?

Any speculation is welcome.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[jimr]

my experiance with T P over powder in the 30-06 is after the shot i noticed a few feet in front of the muzzle i would see a small white cloud of white dust. i can't imagine how your T P is staying together, but i will take your word for it. i think i would switch to some dacron and do not compress it to a wad.

jim

[jimr]

as i stated earlier i was going to take the velocity in the garand a little higher then the 1900fps. that i been shooting, 33.5grs. of imr4895. well i started going up 1gr. at a time. it is intresting that the accuracy has stayed about the same,except point of impact was going up. i am at 39.0grs. @2400fps.and grouping seems to becoming a little tighter. so far no lead no where in the barrel or gas system.
also with the lighter loads the ejection pattern was all over the place from 2-6 o-clock.with the higher velocity the ejiction pattern is normal.
i'm not done with this load yet but i am wondering at what point do you NOT need a filler?
one other thing , i was looking at some of my old lwman mold boxes and 2 of them are marked $8 an one is marked $8.50. looks like the inflation was starting to happen,LOL.

jim

[StarMetal]

You've done good Jim. I would say with that top load if you eliminate the filler that you're going to see either gas cutting or leading or both. 4895 is hot powder on a bare bullet especially in that upper load of yours. If you want to shoot a powder without a filler you need to go to much slower burning powders. The new on the marker 867 surplus would be a great start. If you give me some time I'll be testing that powder in my 06 bolt gun and it just might give us some clues as to how it will run.

Why don't you do a test and just change the filler in the load from TP to Dacron and tell us what happens.

[jimr]

haven't got a chance to use the range today,but my filler on this run of test in the garand has been dacron, i have 10 each loaded with 39 & 40 grs. with & without filler. will post the resluts tomarrow.
jim

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

I have a further question about T/P filler in large BP cases;

I have a 50/90 SS I use for 1000 yard competition shooting. When I was working loads for this rifle I used T/P fillered loads over 4759.

Then, one day I was shooting at the 1000 yard line I fired, watched the fall of my shot then opened the action and watched a hard ball of burned, compressed T/P roll out of the breech into my lap. I was amazed, then I felt the shock of seeing such a thing happening at all, let alone to me.

How did this happen? I asked myself - and I still can't figure it out.

However, I no longer shoot T/P fillered loads. Instead I shoot inert cerial-fillered loads. These, at least will never form possible bore obstructions.

How is this possible? Why/how does the T/P first, remain in the barrel at all. And second how is it compressed into a hard ball of material from the loosely packed condition as loaded?

All comments are welcome.

Good evening,
Forrest

[jimr]

i see in you previous post in this thread that this is not the first time this has happened to you. i would change your filler to dacron. you would think that it would be blown out the barrel. when i used t p in my 30-06 loads i would see in the corner of my eye after the shot a small white cloud of tp blown to dust. i use dacron now.

is it possible that your tp is not staying in front of the charge.

jim