The use of fillers

[jimr]

Hi all,, first off i did do a search here on fillers an position sensitive powders. I thought i was a little confused before i did the search, but now , well here we go.

I am shooting an M1 garand with the lyman #311672 sized to .310 with 33.5grs. of IMR4895 with pretty good results. i have tried it with an without a filler ( toilet paper or a little dacron ) and it does group better with a filler.

One post i read in the search condemns the use of any filler on any load because of possible chamber ringing, and the next post says something like , go ahead and use a filler , it will not hurt a thing.

thanks,Jim

[StarMetal]

I'm in the group that it won't hurt a thing if used properly. That is never tamped down to make an over the top powder wad with air gap between it and the bullet. This is what is nice about Dacron. Cut the proper size and when you stuff it into the case it springs back out. You should have Dacron from the top of the powder and to the base of the bullet. In fact when you seat your bullet it should just slightly compress the Dacron. The only other thing is MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may get a little Dacron fibers in your gas system, but generally I do not see this on the various gas rifles I shoot. Throw the toilet paper out and use Dacron.

[jimr]

thanks for the reply StarMetal.... After several hundred rounds through this garand using this bullet with a gas check the only thing i have found in the gas tube is a very small amount of carbon, no lead or nothing else. also the bore is very bright without a trace of leading. i have switched to using only the dacron, much less of a pain to push in the case. jim

[StarMetal]

Sounds like you have a good load and properly reloaded cartridge with everything spot on with the bullet too.

Now go out and have fun. Remember with filler: fill the space and chamber/barrel you will not waste.

[Multigunner]

When making up light loads for a 7.92 Carbine, using fast powders for its 18 inch tube, I used just a wisp of dacron fiber and always kept the loaded rounds base down in a box till just before shooting.
Another trick was a small disc of cigarette paper pushed in with a dowel or a unsharpened pencil, Just to hold the powder against the flash hole. Groups were very tight using these methods.

The problems with fillers seem to come in when they are used to fill in the remaining air space in a case.

[mooman76]

You are going to get replies saying both answers. So won't use fillers and some like them. You will have to deside for yourself what is safe or best for you. I tried it a few times with remarkable results once. Went from barely getting on paper at 25y to 1" at 25y. I used dacron in some and drier lint in others with the same result.

[StarMetal]

Multi,

The problems I've seen from filler use is when someone takes the Dacron (or other filler they may be using) and tamps it down to a harder wad over top the powder leaving an airspace between it and the bullet. Then it becomes a piston, compresses that air, rings the chamber...or in some instances...worse. I'll ask you a question to see if you understand my point of view. Would you load a hard cardboard wad over the powder and leave an airspace between it and the bullet? I'm talking a significant airspace, not like 1/32 inch or so.

[Multigunner]

Multi,

The problems I've seen from filler use is when someone takes the Dacron (or other filler they may be using) and tamps it down to a harder wad over top the powder leaving an airspace between it and the bullet. Then it becomes a piston, compresses that air, rings the chamber...or in some instances...worse. I'll ask you a question to see if you understand my point of view. Would you load a hard cardboard wad over the powder and leave an airspace between it and the bullet? I'm talking a significant airspace, not like 1/32 inch or so.

Nope, any card wad should be directly under the bullet.
I haven't used card wads yet, might give it a try with a straight case or case with a long neck to reduce blowby on ignition.

Theres no need to form a compressed wad from a filler, all thats really needed is to hold a small charge close to the flash hole in order to get complete and consistent ignition.

When loading a straight case .38 Special with light load and round ball I'djust seat the ball well below the case mouth so there would not be a huge empty space, same may work with some other straight case cartridges, though some have case walls that thicken rapidly the further down it goes so it can result in the bullet being swaged undersized or forming a bulge where it comes to rest.

Actually the only times I've heard of fillers that took up all remaining space inside the case being particularly useful was for light loads of Black Powder that needed a certain amount of compression to burn fully.

[PAT303]

I'm with starmetal,my No.4 will outshoot new factory rifles with 30grns of 2206H(H4895) with a tuff of dacron and a CBE 225grn bore rider. Pat

[StarMetal]

Nope, any card wad should be directly under the bullet.
I haven't used card wads yet, might give it a try with a straight case or case with a long neck to reduce blowby on ignition.

Theres no need to form a compressed wad from a filler, all thats really needed is to hold a small charge close to the flash hole in order to get complete and consistent ignition.

When loading a straight case .38 Special with light load and round ball I'djust seat the ball well below the case mouth so there would not be a huge empty space, same may work with some other straight case cartridges, though some have case walls that thicken rapidly the further down it goes so it can result in the bullet being swaged undersized or forming a bulge where it comes to rest.

Actually the only times I've heard of fillers that took up all remaining space inside the case being particularly useful was for light loads of Black Powder that needed a certain amount of compression to burn fully.

Multi,

I believe we're just about on the same page. I know what you are saying about a whisp of Dacron or a single piece of cigarette paper over the power to hold it back against the primer and how you have to set the cartridges upright in a container until you shoot them. That small amount of filler is so small there is no way that it can cause a problem. I believe what some of us are talking about filling the air space is when you use a larger amount of Dacron, for example, in order that you can transport your ammo, or said another way, be a little less careful with it so that the powder charge can't move the filler in any manner. One of our fine members BruceB done a test where he loaded a clear tube with powder and put a Dacron filler in it and carried it around in his pocket for quite some time. At the end of the test he noted there was not migration of the powder into the Dacron.

What I'm trying to convey is don't pack any type of filler material into a more dense wad atop the powder and leaving an air space between it and the bullet.

[miestro_jerry]

For many of my big honkin' straight walled cartridges, like 45-70, I use Sill Seal punched out to the right size. For bottle neck cartridges I use a little dacron, just enough to hold the powder in place.

I have used COW, and that has to be used sparingly, but it works when loaded right.

Jerry

[Larry Gibson]

Don't confuse a "filler" with a "wad". Many do and that's where the confusion comes from. A filler, if of correct material like dacron and loaded correctly, has been proven safe. This has been discussed at length many times before. A use of the "search" feature will get you plenty of reading material and a better understanding.

Larry Gibson

[jimr]

Thanks for all the imput guys. I just came back in from my range, about 40yds. from my door.

I set the chrono up, fired 10 with a small piece (3/4-1gr.) of dacron and 10 without. the 10 with averaged 1903fps and the 10 without averaged 1912fps.

In my original post i said that i thought it grouped better with a filler (dacron),well after shooting today i must say they seemed to group about the same. With my old eyes and the iron sights the garand can keep them in about 1&1/2- 2in. @ 50yds. It's just getting harder to see that spot.

Thanks agin for the replys, plenty of good knowlage here,you just have to sort through it.

Jim

[StarMetal]

Thanks for all the imput guys. I just came back in from my range, about 40yds. from my door.

I set the chrono up, fired 10 with a small piece (3/4-1gr.) of dacron and 10 without. the 10 with averaged 1903fps and the 10 without averaged 1912fps.

In my original post i said that i thought it grouped better with a filler (dacron),well after shooting today i must say they seemed to group about the same. With my old eyes and the iron sights the garand can keep them in about 1&1/2- 2in. @ 50yds. It's just getting harder to see that spot.

Thanks agin for the replys, plenty of good knowlage here,you just have to sort through it.

Jim

I'm amazed they were slower with the Dacron. Usually Dacron raised the pressure, thus the velocity.

[jimr]

That was my thoughts also , Jim

[miestro_jerry]

I use Dacron to keep the powder to the rear of the cartridge so I have an even ignition.

The cartridges with Dacron were slower, that I will have to ponder on for a bit.

Jerry

[Larry Gibson]

I use Dacron to keep the powder to the rear of the cartridge so I have an even ignition.

The cartridges with Dacron were slower, that I will have to ponder on for a bit.

Jerry

Not all that uncommon. 4895 with a 160 gr bullet in the '06 at little more than 1900 fps is on the low end of 4895 burning efficiently. The ES of both and # or shots in each sample would be a good indicator. Also how the rounds were loaded into the chamber (whether jimr inserted them into the chamber while the rifle was still and level on sandbags on a bench or whether the rifle self loaded them?) also effects powder position and thus efficeint burning. This is a good reason why I prefer the heavier 311299 or 314299 in the '06 with 4895 with velocities in the 1900 - 2000 fps range. Those bullets heavier weight provide for much more efficient ignition at that lower end and almost always provide for better accuracy. Lots of variables with jimr's test but the results are not that uncommon.

Larry Gibson

[jimr]

The rounds were self loaded from the clip at 5 at a time, let cool for 5 minutes and fire 5 more at a slow rate off of sand bags. as another note the brass used was a mixed bag of several mfgs. so for an actual velocity test my data might not be as accurate as if the brass were all the same.

jim

[StarMetal]

Jim,

You do know due the violent chambering from the action it's going to throw that non Dacron filler loose powder forward when it chambers it. I'd also like to mention the method that multigunner uses (the little whisp of Dacron or cigarette paper) more then likely will let that powder push forward also.....ALTHOUGH there is not a thing wrong with his method in the gentle chambering of a bolt action or single shot rifle. So you may repeat the test and when you chamber the rounds with the loose powder hold the muzzle skyward and gently lower into the firing position for each round and fire them. See if you get any difference in groups and velocity.

[jimr]

StarMetal,,, I will try the the chrono test agin tomarrow . With the non-dacron filled cases i will tilt the rifle straight up to keep the powder to the rear an will post the results.

On another thought Lary Gibson stated that my 1900fps. is on the low end of the burning efficiently of 4895,33.5grs.. I am using water droped straight WWs.,with no sign of leading what so ever. How much faster can these be pushed before they start stripping? I know that might be tough to answer an be right on.

Jim