I'm about to give up casting, Part 2

[RobS]

Patsher,
The 9mm case must be resized. Can't skip that part.

The problem to attack is your expanding/belling die. The solution to your problem is a belling die that expands the case to not more than .001" below the desired diam of your cast bullets. Many expanding/belling dies are designed to provide strong neck tension with jacketed bullets and do not expand the casemouth very much, and as you found, this dimensional mismatch causes the softer lead bullets to be sized down.

This problem is very common. I suspect that one of the reasons that some people find that very hard bullets work best in their 9mm, is because it prevents undesired resizing of the cast bullet. Others find that a very hard bullet is not needed for the 9mm, and those people almost surely have the correct size belling/expanding die-- whether by luck or design.

Once you have that licked, just apply a light taper crimp with your regular crimp die, and you're set to go. Good luck.

+1 on this post

[462]

Patsher,
The Lyman "M" die is an expander die that installs a slight "step", about 1/16" deep, inside the case mouth. The step is square-bottomed and allows the boolit to be inserted into the case perpendicular to it, and enter the seating die properly aligned. A regular expander die "flares" the mouth and the boolit can wobble about and enter the seating die at an angle other than optimm.

The die can be purchased as a seperate item, and the expander plug is removable and available seperately, also, making it possible to have one die for many calibers. This may explain it better than I'm able to: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

[stang68]

stang68, are you saying that the barrel only of the seating die will not swage down the bullet?

That's correct, at least in my case with the die set for .38/.357. I've seated dummy rounds in the 3rd hole of my 4 hole turret press then pulled the boolits and they were still .359 - .360. I then did another and put it through the FCD and pulled the boolit and it was .358. I use the Lee TL mould and they drop at .359 - .360 and are quite accurate in my 1894 using the extra seating die for crimping but if I use the FCD my groups are large, just as they were when I was buying .358 LSWC's. Also, I can see the bulged case from the oversized boolit when it comes out of the seating die but then if I put that cartridge through the FCD I can feel it being sized down and can see the ridges of the TL boolit on the outside of the case. Bottom line is the seating die does not swage down the boolit. Now if you use the seating die in the 3rd hole to both seat the boolit and crimp in the same operation it may swage down the boolit.

[JesseCJC]

Once again, the Lee pistol FCD is causing problems. These are an abomination, IMO.

I use and like Lee dies in general, and they are very innovative as a company. The
rifle FCD is a totally different concept, and is great.

Please, newbies, do not buy Lee pistol FCDs or if you have them, put them away!

Bill

I strongly disagree, the issue here is not the FCD, it is a sizing/belling issue. You will be just fine with a taper crimp die. I use hornady dies due to the fact you can seat and place enough crimp via taper in one step.

OP, I would re-think your settings and get it to where you only use the FCD as a fail safe as it is not needed to place enough crimp on the boolit to keep it in place. It is however a very handy last step in QC to ensure your rounds will chamber.

[RobS]

I strongly disagree, the issue here is not the FCD, it is a sizing/belling issue. You will be just fine with a taper crimp die. I use hornady dies due to the fact you can seat and place enough crimp via taper in one step.

OP, I would re-think your settings and get it to where you only use the FCD as a fail safe as it is not needed to place enough crimp on the boolit to keep it in place. It is however a very handy last step in QC to ensure your rounds will chamber.

OK here is what I don't get.......you use Hornady dies and may not understand the FCD possibly. Yes, you are right regarding the re-sizing die making brass too small inside diameter specs and not having an expander plug that re-opens up the brass to a diameter that will be beneficial for a larger cast bullet.

I'm not picking on you by any means; the lee dies are set for jacket bullet dimensions (both the resizing/decapping die and the FCD) and having a bullet that is larger than those specs will in fact have issues unless a person is lucky and gets themself a set of dies where the dies specs are larger which is entirely possible with Lee dies. Most dies are actually set with specs for jacketed bullets, but RCBS does make Cowboy Dies which are designed in mind for the cast bullet shooter. Lyman M dies can assist with the re-opening up of the brass to a desired diameter that won't swage down a cast bullet and the factory plugs may not be enough for some larger diameter bullets so a custom plug maybe in need for such applications.

It is so very fool proof to determine if the FCD has the possibility of swaging down a bullet. If the round with the seated bullet hits the carbide ring in any shape or form as it enters the opening of the die then it will be squeezing down on the brass which will squeeze down on the bullet. There is a bit of wiggle room here in that if a person water quenches a bullet and makes it super hard then the brass may actually stretch and thin out as it will be softer than the water quenched bullet. A soft bullet that is loaded and hits on the FCD's carbide ring upon entering will with no doubt be swaged down in the process.

[bdixon]

I have been having the same problem as you. I finally sat down yesterday with a combination of air cooled and water dropped boolits. I took some brass that was sized and had a light flare at the mouth, then seated a couple of air cooled boolits then pulled them out and measured them. I found that the air-cooled boolits were being sized down from .358 to about .355. I then took some water dropped boolits and pushed them into the brass, pulled them back out and found that they were not being sized down at all.

I just set the bullet seating die down far enough so the flare gets straightened out. I try to not let the brass "bite" into the boolit at all.

I think the winning combo for me is to use wheel weights that are water dropped and sized to .358. I hope so anyway, because I have gotten frustrated with 9mm as well. .45 acp has been a piece of cake to cast for though!

By the way, I'm using RCBS carbide dies. Hope this helps...

[JesseCJC]

OK here is what I don't get.......you use Hornady dies and may not understand the FCD possibly. Yes, you are right regarding the re-sizing die making brass too small inside diameter specs and not having an expander plug that re-opens up the brass to a diameter that will be beneficial for a larger cast bullet.

I'm not picking on you by any means; the lee dies are set for jacket bullet dimensions (both the resizing/decapping die and the FCD) and having a bullet that is larger than those specs will in fact have issues unless a person is lucky and gets themself a set of dies where the dies specs are larger which is entirely possible with Lee dies. Most dies are actually set with specs for jacketed bullets, but RCBS does make Cowboy Dies which are designed in mind for the cast bullet shooter. Lyman M dies can assist with the re-opening up of the brass to a desired diameter that won't swage down a cast bullet and the factory plugs may not be enough for some larger diameter bullets so a custom plug maybe in need for such applications.

It is so very fool proof to determine if the FCD has the possibility of swaging down a bullet. If the round with the seated bullet hits the carbide ring in any shape or form as it enters the opening of the die then it will be squeezing down on the brass which will squeeze down on the bullet. There is a bit of wiggle room here in that if a person water quenches a bullet and makes it super hard then the brass may actually stretch and thin out as it will be softer than the water quenched bullet. A soft bullet that is loaded and hits on the FCD's carbide ring upon entering will with no doubt be swaged down in the process.

I understand, however if you don't have the prior stations set up properly, any mishaps are not due to the last station. You need a control to determine that the FCD is the problem. Even if the lee dies are not correct to use for cast boolits, the issue is not the last station. Being that he stated he did not try to seat and crimp without the FCD I am willing to bet there is another cause to the sizing issue here.

[RobS]

JesseCJC: You are right that if the previous stations are not set right then what's the likely hood of the following stations being right however the original poster has made statements that tell the readers that the FCD is making things worse. He is also going to attempt to crimp without the FCD as seen by another one of his posts. All in bold.

I understand, however if you don't have the prior stations set up properly, any mishaps are not due to the last station. You need a control to determine that the FCD is the problem. Even if the lee dies are not correct to use for cast boolits, the issue is not the last station. Being that he stated he did not try to seat and crimp without the FCD I am willing to bet there is another cause to the sizing issue here.

I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?

Thanks, everyone. I'll try to answer your questions:

Qajaq59: I'll check to see whether I can get a bigger mandrel. That's equivalent to what RobS suggested about an expander plug.

jaguarxk120: It may come to that, a new set of dies, lol!

emc45, dragonrider, and RobS: I'm going to try RobS's suggestion about putting the crimp sleeve into the expander/powder die body, and try crimping a few rounds that way. Then I'll decide whether to get an expander die body, and/or cut the carbide ring out of the fcd.

Thanks for all the detail and how-to's, that gives me the confidence to try!

[patsher]

Well, to update: We tried knocking the carbide ring out of the FCD (after heating, to loosen the loctite), and succeeded only in knocking chips out of two punches and the inside ledge of the die itself. The carbide ring sits happily in place. So... that FCD is now out of the equation entirely, and I will not buy another. (I'm thinking of using the FCD in place of the spark plug used to cast the fishing line clean across the river to where the REALLY big catfish are.... lol )!

I've decided to do three things:
1. Buy the Lyman "M" die.
2. Try to re-adjust my seater/taper crimp die to crimp without swaging. (I'll try, anyway)
3. Buy another seating/taper die body only for taper crimping in a separate step.

And fourth, while waiting for the above items to arrive, I will cast some more bullets , water quench them, and check them for swaging/not swaging in my existing dies.

QUESTION: Where does the Lyman "M" die go in the reloading setup? I'm using a 4-stage turret press:
1 - decapper/sizer
2 - expander/power through die
3 - bullet seater/taper crimper
4 - FCD (now empty)

[RobS]

The Lee FCD is not a total loss here are a few pics of what I did.

The close up of the die mouth from an angle shows where there is the a small lip or bevel that keeps the crimp sleeve from falling out. It is important to use a thin blade like a hacksaw when cutting the carbide ring out and line up so you will be cutting just at the back of the carbide ring. It would be better to actually cut less than too much as too much you will cut that bevel out of the die and end up with a die that is useless as the sleeve will simply fall out. Cut to little and you'll hit the carbide ring which you can't cut with a hacksaw either but no big deal as you can just start a new cut and go from there. The second die I cut for my dad (his 44 mag die) I used a thin cut off disk that I put in my grinder and purposely cut into the die where I would hit the carbide ring and then just moved the cutting disk until it worked its way to the back of the carbide ring and then I cut right through the die body.

[patsher]

JesseCJC,

The thing I didn't really understand about the Lee FCD until I took it out of the press this morning, is that the carbide sleeve is pressed into the very BOTTOM of the die, where the loaded round enters the die. (I had it in my head that the carbide ring was up inside the die someplace!) Anyway, that carbide sleeve is the first point of contact between die and loaded round, and is sized for jacketed bullets rather than cast bullets, and swages down the loaded round.

The die applies the taper AFTER the round passes through the carbide sleeve, so that the swaging takes place before the taper crimp even comes into play. I think that's what RobS was trying to explain about the FCD die, and why it causes so much problem.

And I think you're right -- a slight taper crimp is all that's needed. Since my FCD is now history, I'll get back to finding the best way to do just that. Hope this helps, and many thanks for your kind words.

[patsher]

Way to go, RobS! Those pictures are exactly what I needed to see! (That and your explanation, that is.) If I can do this, then I won't need to buy that extra die body for crimping!

[RobS]

QUESTION: Where does the Lyman "M" die go in the reloading setup? I'm using a 4-stage turret press:
1 - decapper/sizer
2 - expander/power through die
3 - bullet seater/taper crimper
4 - FCD (now empty)

Well you have no other options if you are going to use a Lyman M-die in your 4 station press.

1. decap/size
2. Lyman M-die
3. expand/powder through die although not really expanding just dropping powder
4. bullet seater/taper crimper

You will not have an option to crimp alone in a station by itself.

I have a five stage press that allows me to still crimp in a seperate stage.

1. decap/size
2. Lyman M-die
3. expand/powder through die although not really expanding just dropping powder
4. Seat bullet
5. Crimp bullet

[RobS]

Now here is an option to by-pass the M-die although it will take some work as you'll have to mill it down to about .001 under your intended bullet diameter. You may be able to chuck in into a drill press and work it down or if you have a lathe that is an option too. I figure it would just drop in to your current powder through die, but don't know for certain and it would be best to call the company directly to ask about the diameter of the expander and to double check and see if it is an powder through/expander (has a hole in it do drop powder, like the factory one you have) and not just an expander die (solid).

Never the less it is only $3 and I can't see shipping being much more than USPS 1st class shipping of a few dollars.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...um=DIE-377-EXP

[patsher]

Well, I could put the crimp die into the little single-stage press I've got mounted on the end of the bench, and do it there. That would be simple enough, wouldn't it?

[stang68]

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why it's being recommended to ruin a perfectly good die by trying to knock out the carbide ring, that die is still useful with jacketed bullets. You can order a seating die barrel from Lee for $11.98, you'll have it in about 5-6 days and it will do a great job in turret hole #4 with the barrel of the seating/crimp die in hole #3 screwed out enough that it is not crimping and not possibly sizing down the boolit. As I said this set-up works great for me with the extra seating die as a stand alone crimp die, I didn't like using the seating die to seat and crimp in the same operation, it was difficult to setup properly, and the cartridges didn't always come out to my satisfaction. My two cents worth and I won't harp on it anymore.

[patsher]

Hmmm. That neck plug is an interesting thought. I'll give them a call and find out whether it is solid or hollow.

[patsher]

Stang68, you're right. It's just that I got all excited and tried to knock out the carbide sleeve and wrecked the die. Duh. I'm working on what you said.

[RobS]

If it is hollow ask them to also measure the inside diameter as that will give you the needed info to figure out if it has enough metal to mill down to your need diameter. i.e. if the inside diameter of the hollow part is .353 you will not have enough metal to make the die work as the expander walls would be two thin or non existent and would not have strength.

[Edubya]

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why it's being recommended to ruin a perfectly good die by trying to knock out the carbide ring, that die is still useful with jacketed bullets. You can order a seating die barrel from Lee for $11.98, you'll have it in about 5-6 days and it will do a great job in turret hole #4 with the barrel of the seating/crimp die in hole #3 screwed out enough that it is not crimping and not possibly sizing down the boolit. As I said this set-up works great for me with the extra seating die as a stand alone crimp die, I didn't like using the seating die to seat and crimp in the same operation, it was difficult to setup properly, and the cartridges didn't always come out to my satisfaction. My two cents worth and I won't harp on it anymore.

Couldn't he accomplish the same thing by using the sizer/decapper die without the decapper pin? Might just give it a try by running some through w/o the final crimp and then remove the pin and put the unfinished cartridges in that first station and raise the ram gently. Might have to back out the die quiet a bit to keep from swaging the boolit down.

patsher, Whatever you end up doing, be sure to do the thumb/bench press to insure that you will not get set-back. Also, remember that the brass will spring back and the lead will not.

EW