Alloying Copper into Lead-Tin

[303Guy]

Well, I tried two boolits from this alloy, firing them into fine sand.

85% weight retention.

I'll compare it to the previous lead pipe lot and to an earlier and much softer alloy and see the difference in sand - not the same as in wet pack of flesh.

[jleneave]

OK, this may be way out there but I have to ask. I have a crapload of copper jackets that I have skimmed off the top while melting down indoor range scrap. How hot would the temp have to be to melt these jackets down and pour into ingots or is this a stupid idea? If this is not feasible I may try to sell them as scrap or trade them to the scrap yard for lead. 303guy I hope I am not hijacking your thread and apologize if I am. Thanks

Jody

[sagacious]

Jody,
It's not as easy as one might hope. Working with molten copper is extremely dangerous. You'll need to get it to over 2000*F to pour, and that's serious stuff. Try your local scrap metal dealer. Good luck.

[jleneave]

Jody,
It's not as easy as one might hope. Working with molten copper is extremely dangerous. You'll need to get it to over 2000*F to pour, and that's serious stuff. Try your local scrap metal dealer. Good luck.

That's what I was afraid of. Sounds like it will be easier to try and sell or trade with the scrap yard. Thanks again!

Jody

[303Guy]

Jody

It's about guns and shooting and boolits which makes it right on topic to me!

[lwknight]

Maybe we could throw some zinc-cloride on the melt and just dissolve the copper into the alloy.

Somehow, zinc cloride makes lead/tin bond to just about anything , steel included

[docone31]

Melting copper is simple.
You need heat. Charcoal will get you there, or a propane flame. You will need a crucible, furnace, and sand mold for the copper.
It is fun to do, not the first time, but it is fun.
You cannot alloy into lead with that heat though. You will need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy.
Cost much more than you will recieve.

[sagacious]

Melting copper is simple.
You need heat. Charcoal will get you there, or a propane flame. You will need a crucible, furnace, and sand mold for the copper.
It is fun to do, not the first time, but it is fun.
You cannot alloy into lead with that heat though. You will need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy.
Cost much more than you will recieve.

Likewise, melting steel is "simple."
You need heat, charcoal, and a crucible. It is fun to do.

I'm not sure what is meant by the vague statement "need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy." No catalyst will alloy Cu/Pb into solid solution, as this is a misunderstanding of the term catalyst.

Responsibility compels me to comment strenuously on this subject. Melting copper, brass alloys, or bronze alloys is exceedingly dangerous. This is not a project for newbies, or those unfamiliar with the process. It is borderline irresponsible to suggest that pouring molten copper is just a "simple" matter of fuel, flame, and fun. I'm sure there are people who melt copper in their garage while wearing tennis shorts and using oven mits as gloves, but that's hardly an adequate recommendation for a casual aproach to foundry practice.

I have poured many a crucible of copper and copper alloys. It requires speialized techniques and knowledge to be successful, and a sober attitude about safety practices and the serious consequences and dangers posed by working with 2000+*F molten metal. Anything less is a recipe for disaster, and anyone competent in foundry practice is aware of this.

Let's all continue to recommend only safe practices to newbies, or encourage newbies to study their plans thoroughly before undertaking more demanding metal-pouring challenges. Molten lead can be dangerous enough, and copper is a world away from lead. Good luck, and stay safe.

[Storydude]

Likewise, melting steel is "simple."
You need heat, charcoal, and a crucible. It is fun to do.

I'm not sure what is meant by the vague statement "need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy." No catalyst will alloy Cu/Pb into solid solution, as this is a misunderstanding of the term catalyst.

Responsibility compels me to comment strenuously on this subject. Melting copper, brass alloys, or bronze alloys is exceedingly dangerous. This is not a project for newbies, or those unfamiliar with the process. It is borderline irresponsible to suggest that pouring molten copper is just a "simple" matter of fuel, flame, and fun. I'm sure there are people who melt copper in their garage while wearing tennis shorts and using oven mits as gloves, but that's hardly an adequate recommendation for a casual aproach to foundry practice.

I have poured many a crucible of copper and copper alloys. It requires speialized techniques and knowledge to be successful, and a sober attitude about safety practices and the serious consequences and dangers posed by working with 2000+*F molten metal. Anything less is a recipe for disaster, and anyone competent in foundry practice is aware of this.

Let's all continue to recommend only safe practices to newbies, or encourage newbies to study their plans thoroughly before undertaking more demanding metal-pouring challenges. Molten lead can be dangerous enough, and copper is a world away from lead. Good luck, and stay safe.

Yep. Difference between "Oooow, that hurt..." and "Honey, call 911 I burned my foot off"

[jleneave]

303Guy, Thanks for letting me use your thread for my question.

Everyone who replied to my post, thanks for the information. I don't think that I will attempt to melt down my copper jackets. It sounds like a very complicated process. I am not ready or prepared to undertake a task of this size. I will try to sell them for scrap or trade them for lead to my local scrap yard. Thanks again to all that replied to my question and for looking out for my well being!!

Jody

[docone31]

If you are ever interested, or just curious, there are some great sites on foundry set ups.
It is complicated, but can be mastered.
You would start with aluminum, then jump up to copper. The principles are the same, but, the heat recquired is an eye opener. People tend to be careful by themselves at that heat. If nothing else, you will see how it is done. That alone is fascinating.
U-tube has lots of videos.
Let them do the work. Watching is easy.

[sagacious]

Yes, a splash of lead is one thing, a splash of copper quite another.

That's the right way to approach this subject. Start with lead, then zinc, then aluminum, silver, aluminum bronze and other copper alloys, etc. The heat required as the list advances becomes ferocious. A strong cast-iron pot may crumble or melt when heated to brass-pouring temps. The wrong equipment can be more than an inconvenience, it can be a disaster and cause serious injury.

[jleneave]

Docone31, I will check out those YouTube videos. Thanks for the info.

Sagacious, I was hoping that it would be about as easy as melting lead, but I can now see that I am nowhere near prepared to get into melting down copper, equipment or knowledge wise. Thanks for the reply.

Jody

[sagacious]

You might check around your area and see if there's someone who does foundry work, or casts brass for sculpture work of something similar, and see if you could drop by to take a look. Your local scrap metal dealer might know who pours brass/bronze/etc locally. It's interesting stuff. Most of the folks who do it are passionate about it and happy to show and tell a bit. Good luck.

[jleneave]

You might check around your area and see if there's someone who does foundry work, or casts brass for sculpture work of something similar, and see if you could drop by to take a look. Your local scrap metal dealer might know who pours brass/bronze/etc locally. It's interesting stuff. Most of the folks who do it are passionate about it and happy to show and tell a bit. Good luck.

Thanks, I never thought of that (slapping self on forehead!). I will do some checking and see what I can find out. Thanks again.

Jody

[303Guy]

I found out what the eutectic for lead-copper is at our temperatures - it's 0.06%. That's the solubiity of copper into lead. It's not much but it does explain the rediculous hardness I have with my latest alloy which should be fairly soft. This alloy hardened within hours and continued to harden for some time and seems to have stabilized now. Yet it is not brittle at all.

[sagacious]

As solubility in lead decreases, hardening ability increases.

This is why tin-- which is very soluble in lead-- does not increase hardness much, but antimony-- which has less solubility than tin-- can increase hardness to a far greater degree.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks 303 guy, sorta explains why the boolits I have made with Stonewall babbit, which contains .5% Cu are hard, but not brittle. A little light, but some added Pb should take care of that. The babbitt bullets are good for 2450fps no problem, that's as high as I've gone so far.

[a.squibload]

Please forgive hijack, you reminded me of these.
Pretty sure they're copper, is there an easy way to tell?
I think they're electrical items, the plate came with. Seems heavy.
(Plate is 1/4 x 4 x 8 in., 2 lbs 10 oz)
Won't send them to recycle if there's a boolit-related use for 'em.

Was thinking this could alloy into many pots, will wait for 303guy's results.

Or maybe make huge gas checks?

[303Guy]

Well, copper polishes up real easy with some Brasso and cleans up real well with acid solder flux when hot. A salt solution makes it turn a greenish color. Cutting or filing it would expose the clean metal. Copper is unmistakable - beautiful stuff really. (I have another batch of lead pipe and soldered joints to melt down and alloy with copper - I'll alloy half of it so I can make a comparison.)