WidenersLee PrecisionADvertise hereRepackbox
RotoMetals2Titan ReloadingMidSouth Shooters SupplyInline Fabrication

Donate Now Goal amount for this year: 6000 USD, Received: 6135 USD (102%)
OUR GOAL HAS BEEN MET!
Our Annual server fund drive is going on now! This donation drive helps fund Cast Boolits for an entire year, and helps support our 2nd amendment rights! You can donate by Paypal by clicking the DONATE button. Or by Cash / Check / MO to the address below:

Willy Snyder
PO Box 2732
Pocatello, ID 83206
****Due to overwhelming e-mails, I will be very slow in updating this list. Please bear with me!****


Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 90

Thread: Alloying Copper into Lead-Tin

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy robroy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    357
    I think I'll tin my copper with the solder I plan on adding to the alloy and come up with a (somewhat) precise mix. Testing the toughness in a quantitative way is the poser.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
    lwknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas where the west begins
    Posts
    3,416
    One can add zinc in the same way or much more readily available, add brass to get both copper and zinc. Zinc hardens the lead and also makes it more brittle so not good for a hunting boolit. My idea of thos lead-tin-copper is for a strong and ductile hunting boolit.
    __________________
    Actually copper-zinc make bronze and brass is made from copper and tin.
    Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
    Melting Stuff is FUN!
    Shooting stuff is even funner

    L W Knight

  3. #23
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,683
    You got the definitions backwards, LW. ... felix
    felix

  4. #24
    Boolit Master sagacious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    US West Coast
    Posts
    1,120
    'Tother way around. Generally, Cu+Sn= bronze, and Cu+Zn= brass.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master sagacious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    US West Coast
    Posts
    1,120
    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    ...
    One can add zinc in the same way or much more readily available, add brass to get both copper and zinc. Zinc hardens the lead and also makes it more brittle so not good for a hunting boolit. My idea of thos lead-tin-copper is for a strong and ductile hunting boolit.
    Better test those ideas thoroughly before folks start mixing up a witches' brew.

    I'm with ya somewhat on the zinc, but the brass may not work as well. Brass has different chemical properties than Cu or Zn, and that includes solubility. Tinning and dissolving a 30-06 case in a pot of lead may not be a snap. The addition of both zinc and copper to the melt may (is likely to) also have totally unanticipated effects, and not just bring the 'best' of copper and the 'best' of zinc into the alloy. Test it and see how it goes.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
    lwknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas where the west begins
    Posts
    3,416
    Quote Originally Posted by felix View Post
    You got the definitions backwards, LW. ... felix
    Show Nuff, I did.
    BRass is about 63% zinc
    Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
    Melting Stuff is FUN!
    Shooting stuff is even funner

    L W Knight

  7. #27
    Boolit Master sagacious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    US West Coast
    Posts
    1,120
    Quote Originally Posted by lwknight View Post
    Show Nuff, I did.
    BRass is about 63% zinc
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! 303Guy is going to figure out that beat-up thrift store silverware is actually silverplated brass, and he'll have us trying to make these recipes:

    10lbs lead
    3ozs tin
    two silverplated soup spoons and a seafood fork
    Makes 11 lbs Lyman #2 alloy

    9lbs stick-on ww's
    1lb linotype
    One silverplated butterknife and a gravy ladle
    Makes 11lbs 'hardball' alloy


  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    8,202
    Hee hee!

    Actually, I wouldn't want zinc in my mix anyway - I'm not after hardening.

    OK, so brass won't disolve in the same way as copper or zinc on their own. Would bronze? (Too much copper but I'm just interested).

    The real question is whether there is any benefit from adding copper to the alloy.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  9. #29
    Boolit Master sagacious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    US West Coast
    Posts
    1,120
    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    OK, so brass won't disolve in the same way as copper or zinc on their own. Would bronze? (Too much copper but I'm just interested).
    Lots of different kinds of bronze, but if it was a straight copper/tin bronze, then I suspect that it likely would dissolve with your tinning method. One really needs to know what's in the bronze/brass/etc alloy, as it may contain silicon, aluminum, phosphorous, arsenic, or who-knows-what.

    The real question is whether there is any benefit from adding copper to the alloy.
    Here, here! That's no small question. You may have to invest in a lead hardness tester to better track your findings. I tried the lead/copper alloy routine back in the late 1980's, and found nothing that tin/antimony/arsenic cannot do better and easier, but perhaps you can tease out some useful applications. I hear claims, which is good, but I have seen no comparative tests.

    You might try tinning the copper wire from some old bore-brushes and dissolve it into a lead melt. The wire is phosphor bronze, and it'd be interesting to see if the tiny phosporus component produced a noticeable effect in the alloy. I believe it is soluble, and it may even increase the solubility of copper in lead, but have never seen anything written about this.

  10. #30
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,667
    Quote Originally Posted by sagacious View Post
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! 303Guy is going to figure out that beat-up thrift store silverware is actually silverplated brass, and he'll have us trying to make these recipes:

    10lbs lead
    3ozs tin
    two silverplated soup spoons and a seafood fork
    Makes 11 lbs Lyman #2 alloy

    9lbs stick-on ww's
    1lb linotype
    One silverplated butterknife and a gravy ladle
    Makes 11lbs 'hardball' alloy

    LMAO!!!

    Nuttin' like a little metallurgist's humour at two in the morning!

    Gear

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    8,202
    I have now done some estimations of how much copper went into my alloy. It looks like 0.07%. Some 7 grams into 37000 grams of lead. The amount of tin added was around 16 grams - 0.4%.

    I'm busy making up a new lot. This time, I have melted down 5kg of lead pipe and have prepped 6.5 grams of copper for dissolving - for which I now waiting. I've adde to the melt without the tin because I am suspicious of the pureness of that lead. I cast a few sample boolits with it as melted and they come out a little harder than expected. I don't have a known pure lead sample to compare with.

    This is how I do my comparisons. The method seems to be quite consistant.



    I'll report back later with more findings.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    8,202
    OK this is crazy!

    I'm talking lead drain pipe. Just what's supposed to be in it? It was pretty soft as a pipe. Now, three hours after casting, it has become harder! The remainder of the pot has 7 grams of copper dissolved in it. Castings from that started out with the same hardness as without copper. An hour later they are even harder than without the copper. Water quenched castings were as hard as the copper free are now. After an hour they are harder but still softer than the air cooled copper castings after an hour! What gives? This is getting more and more confusing! By the way, the castings are real nice and shiny.

    Oh, the addition of copper did not produce the colours the last lot gained after adding copper. I'll have to do a test firing into sand in the morning. (If I don't get called to go work).
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-21-2010 at 05:52 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
    lwknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas where the west begins
    Posts
    3,416
    The ingots that I made from lead pipe were harder than pure lead but still pretty soft.
    There might be a little arsenic and antimony in it.
    Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
    Melting Stuff is FUN!
    Shooting stuff is even funner

    L W Knight

  14. #34
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    3,872
    Usually have joints in pipe containing tin solder.
    Any pipes or roofing metal I've ever had was much harder than pure lead.
    I've some cable sheathing that is pure.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    8,202
    So it would seem then that the lead pipe I am handling is work softened. I am keeping the soldered joints separate - that's my source of tin. So, would adding tin actually soften it then? And hopefully make it tougher?

    Well then, maybe I have found a sustainable source of boolit lead. Wheel weights are like hens teeth (fishermen, you know ). All the alloy has to do is expand properly and hold together.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  16. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8,099
    303guy,

    You sure that pipe lead work softens?

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    8,202
    Well, the lead was as soft as when I handled it and now that I've melted it down and cast a few sample boolits it's as hard as (by my standards and it hardened quite rapidly after casting whether it was water quenched or not. So no, I am not sure of anything!
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  18. #38
    Boolit Master sagacious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    US West Coast
    Posts
    1,120
    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    OK this is crazy!

    I'm talking lead drain pipe. Just what's supposed to be in it? It was pretty soft as a pipe. Now, three hours after casting, it has become harder!
    This is normal and expectable. Lead pipe often has a percent or two of antimony. This is also true with lead sheet. Lead pipe and lead sheet could be almost anything, and it's very possible that it's recycled battery lead.

    The extrusion process invariably softens the lead. The hardness of the lead pipe before melting and casting into ingots is not representative of the alloy constituents. The commonly-repeated belief that lead pipe is pure lead is not always true.

    You'll need to know how much Sb is in your alloy to be able to discern any hardening from copper, especially since your Sb component may be 50 times greater than your copper component. Trying to tease some solid understanding of what effect about 0.05% copper has without starting with pure lead is going to be very, very difficult.

    Not trying to discourage. Good luck.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    South West Ohio
    Posts
    1,462
    What would happen if you threw copper plated shot in? Is there enough copper to be of use? If it melted you would at least be able to be consistent.

    I went out to Rotometal and found this: http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/...rd_babbitt.htm

    It's likely silly expensive but at 36% Tin with 51% Lead, 1% Copper and 12% Antimony. Melt Temp Around 360 deg F. You could work out a formula for adding pure lead to make this work.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
    lwknight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas where the west begins
    Posts
    3,416
    Abitnutx, the math is easy.
    What result would you like to have. I'll make you the recipe.
    Sent from my PC with a keyboard and camera on it with internet too.
    Melting Stuff is FUN!
    Shooting stuff is even funner

    L W Knight

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check