The only acceptable answer is none at all in ANY case
I have and use polygonal rifled bbls and a small bit is normal
I have and use Ballard rifled bbls and a small bit is normal
I have and use both riflings and a small bit is normal
Hopefully you will read this before you reply:
The background is this, I often see a very small amount of lead in my bbl after an extended shooting session. It is not uncommon for me to shoot 2-300 rounds. The lead amounts are small, and readily removed with a Lewis Lead Remover. This is the case with either a polygonal bbl like my stock Glock bbls, or with an aftermarket Ballard rifled bbl for the same guns.
So, with that in mind, which would you think best describes "normal"?
I have shot 200 rounds plus before cleaning, and I get no leading at all.
I don't shoot any polygon rilfed guns cause I don't own any.
Well I do not own any polygonal barreled firearms either but answered the thread with "I have and use Ballard rifled bbls and a small bit is normal" but this is not totally truthful either as I do expect certain scenarios where there should not be leading.
It all depends on what I am asking of the bullet is what I am trying to say. Let me explain: A PB bullet that I am pushing to the brink of maxing out or is maxed out regarding its relationship to the alloy strength then sure a small bit of leading is normal/ok. Although if I am shooting a bullet that is of intended alloy and design for the pressures/velocity and it leads then that is not acceptable.
The short version is no. On properly dimensioned guns, properly loaded, alloyed, and lubed, I get absolutely ZERO leading of any kind, even after hundreds of rounds. I don't own any polygonal barrels, either.
Some tweaking is involved with achieving this, often reaming, lapping, polishing, firelapping, rethroating, or playing with alloy, boolit size, and altering reloading dies is necessary for perfection, but my philosophy is that cleaning lead out of a gun after shooting it means something is wrong.
Gear
Nothing that really builds up. Just some traces here and there. A normal brushing and
a few patches and it is gone. Certainly no need for a Lewis Lead remover.
I never have tried polygonal rifling.
If it was easy, anybody could do it.
Exactly the same for me. SOme guns more or less than others.Originally Posted by MtGun44
............The ONLY time leading is an issue is when it has an effect on accuracy, and that tends to be accumulative leading. I have several rifles I seldom bother to clean. I run an oily mop down the barrel, wipe'm down and put them up. I have others that at home if you shine a bright light into the muzzle you can see a faint 'grayness' on the RH side of the lands, but they shot as well at the end as they did at the begining.
The worst case of leading I've EVER experienced was with my Ruger MkII 678, and it had been exceedingly accurate and trouble free with any ammo previously. I'd had good luck with Remington Vipers in my Rem 582 and tried them in the Ruger. Accuracy degenerated from one shot to the next. You could see clumps of lead in the bore. At home I had to DRIVE a a bare aluminum cleaning rod (no brush) through the barrel. It pushed out a raggedy tube of lead, but I still had a few days work ahead of me!
I didn't see it, but our old range master said once he'd seen a guy shooting cast and he had lead stalagtites (or would they be stalagMITES?) hanging out of the rifle's muzzle! Now THAT is leading
...............Buckshot
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Same here more or less. I would question the use of the word "normal" in the OP poll. What's normal for one gun might be something never seen in another, and that goes for either side of the middle. The closest to "normal" I get is a light grey wash in many barrels. Maybe a slight streak of it here and there. Most of my barrels remain lead free, at least to the extent that I can easily see it looking through the bore, but my eye's ain't so hot anymore. I have a couple that hate lead, so far at least, and 5 rounds leave the barrel looking like the proverbial sewer pipe. Oddly, i also have a few that are "rough" looking and don't lead at all. I have another that required running a mop with Mule Snot on it through the barrel before the leading stopped, I figured it filled the pits.
Leading is funny and I will get some depending on the alloy. It never sticks and a patch will bring out a few strands. Doesn't matter if I shoot one or 500 shots, the amount will be the same so it must be loose and it shoots out with each shot.
The worst seems to be straight WW's. If I change the metal a little by making it harder or adding pure to make it softer, there will be zero leading.
Adding a little tin to WW's has not shown it to cast easier or to stop the strands of lead. It only takes a patch to remove it anyway.
Since my hunting loads all are about the same velocity, it is only the alloy. If I shoot light loads of fast powder, changing the alloy also gives me zero leading.
In my BPCR I shoot 20 to 1 or 30 to1 with zero leading but WW boolits will leave some lead in the bore. I shoot over size boolits too.
It must be the binding together of the metals on a molecular scale that is just not right in some alloys. The leading I get is mechanical. If you have gas cutting, it will solder itself to the bore.
If the boolit skids past the base you can have gas cutting but also even if it does not gas cut, the larger land marks will not scrape out the bore.
Anytime someone says a filler or wad helps clean the lead out, it means the boolit has skidded too much and the mechanical action behind the boolit will help. But what does that do for accuracy?
The fact that you have asked this question in the manner that you have tells me that you are approaching this from the wrong point of view.
I have shot both types. Polygonal generally has a lower velocity limit than Ballard style rifling of the same height. Another way to say this is that you need a harder bullet to hold the same height rifling with polygonal rifling. So the velocity level of the cartridge has to be considered in this answer.
But polygonal rifling is easier to make uniformly because you are not forming that sharp angle at the base of the rifling groove junction either. So you "can" get a barrel that seals better. Seal will be maintained up until the point that the lead is not strong enough to hold.
To visualize this in your mind, think of pushing a heavy ball up a sloping ramp compared to a 90 degree wall.
But polygonal rifling constantly changes. Lead with antimony will polish off high spots in a barrel. So polygonal rifling rifling that is exposed beyond the initial engraving of the rifling is worn away. It is transformed to a much steeper angle that more closely matches Ballard type rifling. I have a Smith that had polygonal that the groove space has now widened and looks like it was broached to most people. As it changes, it will be able to handle softer slugs at the same velocity level or .... you will be able to increase velocity levels.
If you do not exceed the ability of the rifling type to hold the lead, then it is very possible that the polygonal could be a better seal than a Ballard style barrel. So what is "normal leading" can only be defined in reference to the quality of "THAT" specific barrel, regardless of rifling type. Either type can lead up a storm or not at all.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
I have no polygonal bbls, so can't comment. In my rifles, I expect and get, little or no leading. If I do start to get leading with a load, I change things until it disappears. In my 44 mag handguns, I sometimes get minor leading with medium charges of powders like Unique, or Green Dot, but nothing that can't be removed by either a cloth patch or shooting a few gas checked boolits. On 1100 to 1300 fps .44 loads, I get zippo leading with 2400, H-110, and Wc 820 and plain based boolits. Interestingly to me, most of my Smith 629's have .429 minus throats and yet I shoot .431 diameter Bhn 11 boolits with zippo leading! I have no idea what the bbl diameter is, and it's too hard to measure due to the 5 land rifiling. Since I get no leading....I don't care either!
It's all chicken, even the beak!
If you HAVE to use a lewis lead remover it is not normal leading!
Normal leading is easily brushed out with a few strokes of a brass brush after who cares how many rounds. In most case's corrrect fitting boolits should not lead if you are doing everything right!
I hate putting a brush of any type down any barrel because of the collatteral damage caused by the rod and attaching points on the rod!
This is what wipes out rifling at the muzzle of most rifles!
"Normal" leading for me is a light streak here or there that comes out easily with a few passes of a brass brush regardless if I fire 20 rounds or 500 rounds before cleaning. Oddly, at least with the casting/lube combos I use in my firearms, there seems to be about the same amount of leading after round 500 as there was after round number one. No matter how many rounds I fire between cleanings the leading appears to be the same. I bought a used Accusport Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt/45 ACP at a local gun shop one time that you could hardly see the rifling in. The guy that brought it in said it just kept shooting worse and worse. The shop let me have it for what they gave him in trade in value. The previous owner said he had used factory ammo, but I was never able to duplicate leading that bad in anything.
Bass,
Having shot accurate groups at very high velocity with rifles with both very deep cut rifling and with very shallow button rifling and both with very fast rifling twist.......and with 50/50 alloy both WQ and AC,I can tell you unequivocally that one is hard pressed to fine the limit of the alloy as far as holding the rifling.
Now with that said you're way off on polygonal rifling. Being the poster is shooting a pistol I seriously doubt he'll ever reach that point when the alloy won't hold the rifling. To further prove that I have a 16 inch long barrel with poly rifling that I have really put to the test velocity wise with no ill behavior what so ever.
What I'm not so sure about is the wear difference between conventional rifling and poly rifling.
Now to answer the gentleman's question I don't think it's abnormal to get a little leading that can be easily removed. It's not clear in his post if he has to use the Lewis Lead remover or not.
Now I have been known to say ".....and there was nothing, absolutely nothing in my barrel after shooting except powder carbon". That has been said here by other posters, but worded differently. Would they and myself bet big on that if our barrels were taken to a scientific lab and tested for traces of lead?
Leading of any kind is unacceptable.
"A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold
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So jacketed alloy of any kind is unacceptable too huh?
Well Joe I had a 7MM Shilen in the late 70s that was a 10 twist polygonal. Still have it downstairs as it was converted to an Ackley in the early 80s. Took it off to make my new Whelen. Very accurate with cast or jacketed. Just would go squirrely with cast at much lower levels than conventional rifling we had in other family members standard 7s. Those were 8.66 twist of varying height 98s. So I should have had an advantage with a slower twist. Didn't happen. That's just the results I saw cause I casted for everyone. No leading.
Now in my 627, Smith the 358156 was a pie plate killer at 25 yards with 12 grains of 2400. I use 12 1/2 in the Mod 27 with conventional. Yep, that's a 9" pie plate that I could only hit 6 out 8 at 25 yards. Back down to 9 grains and it came in to about 3". Never had any leading. Rifling to groove ratio new was about 70% land / 30% groove. Now it is closer to 50 / 50. I am back up to 11 1/2 grains now with the same batch of bullets. Still not up to the 27 that has the same twist rate. I was able to come up gradually every 1000 rounds or so. The improvement I saw came with the wider grooves and less angled (steeper) rifling.
Plus think back to my pure lead 06 stuff into gel. Without any nose deformation, as velocity increased, penetration dropped and was erratic. That indicated to me that I was not getting the RPMS. Had to be muzzle stripping.
And you didn't read the word always in there anywhere. Just what I have seen so the advise I offered.
Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.
To me, it depends on the load and what you are using it for. Target /plinking loads, if I have leading, I work on it until it's eliminated. On the other hand, I have a .41 mag full house load for boar hunting that leaves lead after 4 to 6 rounds. I don't care to spend all the time analysizing it and extended load developement to achieve a result that has no benefit to me. Over the years, I've taken enough game with it to have confidence that it will do the job.
As long as you make it through the intended shooting session without a decrease in accuracy, I wouldn't worry about it., BTJM.
Not sure what fight you're trying to pick. Please clarify.
"A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold
Live generously.
I don't know why you are TRYING to stir the pot and cause trouble. If you are referring to Bass and I, John and I grew up with a few miles of one another and are very good friends. So you see, you're all wet and a trying keyboard trouble maker.
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