Is modest leading normal?

[StarMetal]

Well Joe I had a 7MM Shilen in the late 70s that was a 10 twist polygonal. Still have it downstairs as it was converted to an Ackley in the early 80s. Took it off to make my new Whelen. Very accurate with cast or jacketed. Just would go squirrely with cast at much lower levels than conventional rifling we had in other family members standard 7s. Those were 8.66 twist of varying height 98s. So I should have had an advantage with a slower twist. Didn't happen. That's just the results I saw cause I casted for everyone. No leading.

Now in my 627, Smith the 358156 was a pie plate killer at 25 yards with 12 grains of 2400. I use 12 1/2 in the Mod 27 with conventional. Yep, that's a 9" pie plate that I could only hit 6 out 8 at 25 yards. Back down to 9 grains and it came in to about 3". Never had any leading. Rifling to groove ratio new was about 70% land / 30% groove. Now it is closer to 50 / 50. I am back up to 11 1/2 grains now with the same batch of bullets. Still not up to the 27 that has the same twist rate. I was able to come up gradually every 1000 rounds or so. The improvement I saw came with the wider grooves and less angled (steeper) rifling.

Plus think back to my pure lead 06 stuff into gel. Without any nose deformation, as velocity increased, penetration dropped and was erratic. That indicated to me that I was not getting the RPMS. Had to be muzzle stripping.

And you didn't read the word always in there anywhere. Just what I have seen so the advise I offered.

John,

I know it's not always. I sure would like to give the guns and barrels you have mentioned a try. Remember it was said that 45 2.1 and myself couldn't shoot the Swede at HV with accuracy...or for that matter any really fast twist. I believe that has been, as the Mythbusters would say, BUSTED.

[Adam10mm]

I don't know why you are TRYING to stir the pot and cause trouble. If you are referring to Bass and I, John and I grew up with a few miles of one another and are very good friends. So you see, you're all wet and a trying keyboard trouble maker.

Stir the pot and cause trouble? Please. The question was asked if "modest leading was normal" and my personal response was any leading is unacceptable. This is unacceptable to me. Others opinion may vary.

I don't rightly care who you know or who you grew up with. It matters not to me nor the discussion of the acceptability of leading in our firearms which is this topic.

I simply gave my opinion as it pertains to my shooting desires. I was responding to no one but the OP and his question. IMO, your inflammatory response seemingly aimed at me was uncalled for.

Good day, sir.

[StarMetal]

Stir the pot and cause trouble? Please. The question was asked if "modest leading was normal" and my personal response was any leading is unacceptable. This is unacceptable to me. Others opinion may vary.

I don't rightly care who you know or who you grew up with. It matters not to me nor the discussion of the acceptability of leading in our firearms which is this topic.

I simply gave my opinion as it pertains to my shooting desires. I was responding to no one but the OP and his question. IMO, your inflammatory response seemingly aimed at me was uncalled for.

Good day, sir.

And because my opinion differs, along with more then one other member, I'm singled out by you? I gave my opinion too. Have you taken a good look at the votes???????????????

[Bass Ackward]

Remember it was said that 45 2.1 and myself couldn't shoot the Swede at HV with accuracy...or for that matter any really fast twist. I believe that has been, as the Mythbusters would say, BUSTED.

And I have theories for that too. Different thread.

[HammerMTB]

............The ONLY time leading is an issue is when it has an effect on accuracy, and that tends to be accumulative leading. I have several rifles I seldom bother to clean. I run an oily mop down the barrel, wipe'm down and put them up. I have others that at home if you shine a bright light into the muzzle you can see a faint 'grayness' on the RH side of the lands, but they shot as well at the end as they did at the begining.


...............Buckshot

It is time to clarify:
No, I don't HAVE TO use the Lewis Lead Remover, it's just handy and quick. It is also nice to be able to see just how much (or little) might be in the bore.
I separated polygonal and Ballard rifling to see if there was any correlation in leading. If there is, it certainly is not clear yet. My experience is that while there are more Mfr cautions out there about polgonal rifling, it seems to take to lead OK. It may require some slight changes in technique. Whether they make it easier or harder to shoot lead boolits you will have to judge.
What is clear is that there are just as many who ignore a slight lead wash that doesn't affect accuracy as there are who have ZERO tolerance for leading.
I say whatever works for ya.
I have one gun that's absolutely free of any trace of lead. I use paper patches in that 45-70. The bore looks polished!
When lead contacts the bore it is hard for me to imagine that there is no trace of it in the bore. I'd bet that a chemical reaction process would bring some out of bores thought "clean" by their owners. Kinda like copper wash with a j-word bullet.

[geargnasher]

So jacketed alloy of any kind is unacceptable too huh?

Joe, I know that wasn't directed at me, but I can't help answering since it seems to be a valid question all by itself: YES, that's right, I don't shoot jacketed bullets in ANYTHING anymore because of coppering, and then I have to decopper before I can shoot lead, and that involves seasoning the barrel again. I get darned good results, just like you do, from lead alloys and have no need for condoms.

Gear

[geargnasher]

It is time to clarify:
No, I don't HAVE TO use the Lewis Lead Remover, it's just handy and quick. It is also nice to be able to see just how much (or little) might be in the bore.
I separated polygonal and Ballard rifling to see if there was any correlation in leading. If there is, it certainly is not clear yet. My experience is that while there are more Mfr cautions out there about polgonal rifling, it seems to take to lead OK. It may require some slight changes in technique. Whether they make it easier or harder to shoot lead boolits you will have to judge.
What is clear is that there are just as many who ignore a slight lead wash that doesn't affect accuracy as there are who have ZERO tolerance for leading.
I say whatever works for ya.
I have one gun that's absolutely free of any trace of lead. I use paper patches in that 45-70. The bore looks polished!
When lead contacts the bore it is hard for me to imagine that there is no trace of it in the bore. I'd bet that a chemical reaction process would bring some out of bores thought "clean" by their owners. Kinda like copper wash with a j-word bullet.

Hammer, I agree that what we claim are "lead-free" bores might have all the microscopic pores filled with lead, but when I say "ZERO", I mean I can't see it with a bore scope and it won't build up after several hundred shots between cleanings, to me that's good enough. An antimony wash happens with some of my guns, FIL's model 29 with pb boolits, for example, gets an antimony wash in the bore, blast marks around the cylinder gap, and a silver star on the muzzle crown that takes a bit of wiping with a rag and Ed's Red to remove, but nothing ever builds up in the rifling since I doped out the load.

Some leading is "normal" with average guns and average reloading skills, but it can USUALLY be tweaked away in my experience so far. That's not to say it's possible with every gun, or every type of rifling.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe, I know that wasn't directed at me, but I can't help answering since it seems to be a valid question all by itself: YES, that's right, I don't shoot jacketed bullets in ANYTHING anymore because of coppering, and then I have to decopper before I can shoot lead, and that involves seasoning the barrel again. I get darned good results, just like you do, from lead alloys and have no need for condoms.

Gear

It was a generalization directed at all that voted for zero leading in the bore.

I shoot jacketed in certain calibers and out certain rifles. I like to enjoy all types of shooting and ammo including cap n ball, patched ball, BP. I clean well after shooting jacketed too. I like to start any shooting with a clean bore from previous different fouling.

[MT Gianni]

I don't own a polygonal barrel but experience no leading after 2-300 rds in most of my firearms. I may get some in one or two and may get some after 5-800 in others That answer is not available in the poll.

[deerslayer]

Hammer, I too shoot a glock with the factory polygonal barrell. After 4-500 rounds I still see no evidence of leading when I take the barrel out and hold it up to the light after shooting. I don't have a bore scope and I have no intentions of using a microscope. As far as a cleaner I have found that a shot of brake cleaner and the factory nylon brush cleans mine just fine and it "looks" like new at least to my eye.

[Char-Gar]

With plain base cast bullet most often there is some traces of lead. A dozen fore and aft stroked with a brush takes it out. More than that Iconsider it a problem.

With CG bullets there should be no lead.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I don't want to have any lead in my barrels but it is there. It takes more than a swipe with a patch to get it out but that is a part of learning here.

[Maven]

Hammer MTB,

"What would you consider normal RE: leading in pistols?"

Option 1: "The only acceptable answer is none at all in ANY case"

I think I'd have rephrased the first choice in your poll to state, "The ideal [answer] is none at all."

However, in practice bbl. condition may vary from little/no leading to a great deal of leading. The former may have a minimal effect on accuracy, while the latter will [al]most certainly affect it. Nevertheless, this begs the question, Why is there leading in the first place (and type of rifling isn't the first or only contributing factor)?

[Leftoverdj]

We may be talking about different things. I get the light gray wash several posters have mentioned. It does not build up. It does not seem to affect accuracy. It does not reguire any special measures to remove. I consider it perfectly normal for shooting cast bullets.

Visible flakes or strips of metallic lead is what I consider leading, and I consider that unacceptable.

[geargnasher]

We may be talking about different things. I get the light gray wash several posters have mentioned. It does not build up. It does not seem to affect accuracy. It does not reguire any special measures to remove. I consider it perfectly normal for shooting cast bullets.

Visible flakes or strips of metallic lead is what I consider leading, and I consider that unacceptable.

Well put.

I've heard that light grey wash called "antimony wash", and since all my boolits contain some amount of antimony I can't say it isn't that, but since I haven't had the stuff analyzed it might just be powder soot mixed with lube residue. Whatever it is, as long as it's present, accuracy is good and leading is non-existent in most cases.

Gear

[Gunslinger]

I have a poly barrel in my EAA Witness. I shoot around 700 rounds each week. 9MM, 125gr and 135gr under 1000fps. When I started casting it really bothered me that no matter what I tried, I got leading in that barrel. So I got to think, maybe it's fowling?! I shot 50 rounds, looked through the barrel... and I looked leaded. The next time I looked through the barrel was 500 rounds later. Barrel looked the same. Next look was 1200 rounds... same looking barrel. And it doesn't decrease accuracy. So I live with it. I admit, when I clean with chore boy wrapped around a brush, I have difficulty removing the last few spots in the forcing cone area. But hey, after 100 rounds, what's the difference?

My S&W 686 (traditional rifling) loves lead, and I can shoot hundreds of rounds in it without seeing lead in the barrel. I just run break free through it with a patch.

[Mal Paso]

My only experience is 44 cal. When I used faster powders like Titegroup and 231 to push the 240g 429421 (1000+ fps) I got serious leading. I've pulled out streamers almost as long as the barrel. I use mostly 2400 now. My 14g load for steel targets is about 900+ fps, will Never Lead but needs to be in 44 Special Brass. 18g in Magnum Brass (which seems to be minimum for reliable ignition) gets me a few flecks on the cotton patch after 200 rounds but the patch is all that's needed. At 21g+ and I get a few 1/32" flakes .001 thick stuck to the barrel but No decrease in accuracy but that's 1400 fps from a 4" barrel. The Lewis Lead Remover makes it not a second thought.

[jonk]

I have one .45 that leads horribly even with a properly fit bullet and hand lapped barrel (to try and stop the problem). Hard alloy, light alloy, stiff charge, light charge.....some worse than others but all seem to lead.

With that exception, my definition of 'acceptable' is 'wipes out with a few patches' or at MOST 2-3 passes with a brush. I wouldn't define that as 'leading' as leading will be galled onto the bore metal, requiring stiff cleaning to remove; but rather as 'residue.'

[HammerMTB]

Well this has been an interesting and revelational poll.
I hoped to find out whether most or nearly all considered ZERO leading the norm, or only acceptable level of lead "fouling".
At this time, it is about 2 to 1 in favor of my opinion that a small amount of lead fouling that will not affect accuracy is- for lack of a better term- normal.
I realize that with a lot of fiddling, MOST guns can be made to shoot free of lead fouling of any kind. However, it looks as though most of us would rather shoot than fiddle endlessly with loads looking for the Holy Grail of ZERO leading. For those that have that happy condition, good for you. Whether it was consummate skill, good luck, or some combination of those 2 or many more, it's a good thing.
My intent in the poll was just to find out how common, or uncommon, it is to see lead-free barrels after more than just a few shots.
I believe I have that data now.

[CiDirkona]

I've got about 7k rds of hardcast lead through my Glock 17s (dardas 356 124gr lrn, lonewolf barrels) and have nothing more than powder soot. A single pass with a bore snake and I'm clean.

My compensator on the other hand, gets a nice splattery cake though! A few rounds of FMJ at 155pf though and she's also clean as a whistle - blows that stuff right out!