Dazed by lube choices

[okksu]

Noob to casting/lubing. Seems the number and variations of recipes are overwhelming. I've gleaned from reading: some are labeled BP recipes, some labeled smokeless, some labeled good at lower velocity for handguns, others for higher vleocities... So what do I look for in a recipe which isn't designated and tell for which it is likely to be suitable? Are there key ingrediants that are indicators?

[geargnasher]

Yes, it can be a bit overwhelming, and sorting it all out is rather beyond the scope of a single thread. Something that always throws a monkey wrench into the works is subjectivity, although each general class of lube has generally agreed upon uses. Since each gun really is a law unto itself with lube choice and experience/ego/expectations vary greatly, the best thing I can see to do is ask you to is tell us more about what you're trying to do with cast and we can make some recommendations, and explain the purpose of each ingredient in that recommended recipe so you can get an idea of the WHY. Keep in mind opinions will differ, but most of them will be good.

Gear

[okksu]

Here's my story and I'm sticking to it:

My shooting is almost exclusively 100yd bench at my club's misurp bolt action matches. I was drawn to casting for $$ reasons.

Two rifles I'm working on: Finn M-39 (slugs at .300-.310) and Swiss K-31 (slugs .297-.308) I have not chamber/throat cast either rifle. Both barrels are in very good shape as milsurp barrels go, and were well cleaned when I shot my first CB loads. Results were not good.

Mold is a Lee six cavity oversized 155, the C E Harris Design, that drops just under the advertised .315 using WW alloy ingots, AC'd. All Boolits were weight sorted to w/in .5 gr.

I size with either of 2 Lee sizer dies, a .311 die that actually produces a .310 for the Swiss and a .314 die that actually does .312 which I use for the M-39.

I was trying to develope "the load" (+/- 16 gr of 2400) for either/both of those rifles.

I have tried the 45/45/10 tumble lube with 15, 15.5 and 16 gr of 2400, but w/o a gas check.

Using the .312 TL's, the Finn leaded up very quickly (@10 rounds) to the point that a lead donut was built up at the muzzle face and lead pushed out with a patch. Not surprisingly, those were all over the paper. The rifle, with surplus, is sub 2.5 MOA capable. The Swiss, however, using the .310's, and same powder loadings, had only very slight leading, BUT quite frankly don't haqve a clue where they were actually going, (it wasn't on the paper....) But that lack of rather important info was my fault for not taking some spotting help along with me .

So, the plan is GC's on the same bullet next go round, still using the 45/45/10 TL. (Yes, I should have started with GC's.) I want to also take some lubed with a different recipe, particularly for the Finn to try at the same time. Its a piece from here out to the range. I'm leaning towards Gene Fryxells 50/50 just because it seems easy enough to do but I'm open for any info that would help ID'ing a good lube recipe for the above.

Also, when putting gas checks on (Hndy 30 cal.s), about 25% come off the boolit somewhere bewteen the sizer and seating the bullet in the case. Any tips on correcting that problem or is it likely that's caused by inconsistent casting technique?

[geargnasher]

Here's my story and I'm sticking to it:

My shooting is almost exclusively 100yd bench at my club's misurp bolt action matches. I was drawn to casting for $$ reasons.

Two rifles I'm working on: Finn M-39 (slugs at .300-.310) and Swiss K-31 (slugs .297-.308) I have not chamber/throat cast either rifle. Both barrels are in very good shape as milsurp barrels go, and were well cleaned when I shot my first CB loads. Results were not good.

Mold is a Lee six cavity oversized 155, the C E Harris Design, that drops just under the advertised .315 using WW alloy ingots, AC'd. All Boolits were weight sorted to w/in .5 gr.

I size with either of 2 Lee sizer dies, a .311 die that actually produces a .310 for the Swiss and a .314 die that actually does .312 which I use for the M-39.

I was trying to develope "the load" (+/- 16 gr of 2400) for either/both of those rifles.

I have tried the 45/45/10 tumble lube with 15, 15.5 and 16 gr of 2400, but w/o a gas check. I don't know why that would be an "oops" necessarily, I shoot lots of things without checks at lower velocities just fine. The tumble lube may or may not prove to be sufficient for that application. I would most definitely invest in a lubrisizer with .309" and .311 dies, either a Lyman or an RCBS is cheapest.

Using the .312 TL's, the Finn leaded up very quickly (@10 rounds) to the point that a lead donut was built up at the muzzle face and lead pushed out with a patch. Not surprisingly, those were all over the paper. The rifle, with surplus, is sub 2.5 MOA capable. The Swiss, however, using the .310's, and same powder loadings, had only very slight leading, BUT quite frankly don't haqve a clue where they were actually going, (it wasn't on the paper....) But that lack of rather important info was my fault for not taking some spotting help along with me .

So, the plan is GC's on the same bullet next go round, still using the 45/45/10 TL. (Yes, I should have started with GC's.) I want to also take some lubed with a different recipe, particularly for the Finn to try at the same time. Its a piece from here out to the range. I'm leaning towards Gene Fryxells 50/50 just because it seems easy enough to do but I'm open for any info that would help ID'ing a good lube recipe for the above. Here goes my two cents: Make some Felix lube, or buy Carnauba Red from White Label Lubes. The reason here is you're looking to shoot in competition, and those lubes are designed for such, being doped-out to give shot-to-shot consistency and superior accuracy through proper balance of carrier (lube base) and lubricants, which helps reduce flyers as the barrel gets warm. Other lubes will work, but that's what I would try first personally.

Also, when putting gas checks on (Hndy 30 cal.s), about 25% come off the boolit somewhere bewteen the sizer and seating the bullet in the case. Any tips on correcting that problem or is it likely that's caused by inconsistent casting technique? Without good pics of the boolit bases without checks, it's hard to say, but you either have rounded bases from a sprueplate/mould that is too cold and not filling out, or the gc shank is too small.

Sounds like the next thing you need to do is delead, followed by a DECOPPER. If there is ANY trace of copper fouling in you bores it will grab lead like crazy.

I think you're on the right track with your measuring and boolit selection, but I would try a conventional lube first, and then take a real close look at your loading technique. You might have to modify some of your dies to work with cast, especially the M39. You want about .002" or less neck tension to keep those acww from getting swaged down when you seat them, especially without gas checks. Achieving this may require honing the neck-sizer section of your die and using a turned-down expander stem from the next caliber up. That goes for the seating die, too, if the neck-guiding area is too small to accomodate cast boolit dimensions. You will want to use a good case mouth expander, I would recommend the Lyman M die for expanding and bellmouthing, it's very consistent and makes concentric ammo. Another thing you might try is making an impact slug of your rifle's throats, that way you know how fat your chamber neck and leade are. Not essential for getting your first loads on paper, but may come in handy for fine-tuning accuracy.

But trust me on the Felix lube.

Gear

[runfiverun]

wow.
thats about 10 things at once.
fix the gas check problem first, then just change the lubes viscosity slightly.
you will see changes right there.
then you can tweak the load.

[okksu]

Appreciate all the suggestions, and special thanks to Gnasher's PM explaination of the throat impact slugging procedure.

runfiverun: "change the lubes viscosity slightly."
as in change the 45/45/10 Tumble lube viscosity? More/less of what? the JPW, or MS? Or are you saying go to something different, like either Felix lube or Fryxell's 50/50 Beeswax /lithium EP bearing grease? I've now got the makings on hand for both of those...

GC problem: I've re-examined the boolits that aren't taking the GC's right. Some bases are are a casting /sprue cutoff problem, but several of the others appear just fine, but yet the GC just refuses to go on square and seat properly. (I assume that a cockeyed GC seating is not a good thing.)

Ah, while I love toys and would like to go out and get a lube/sizer setup, the $225.00 plus isn't in the budget, particularly not until I get a whole lot closer to some usable results. Until then, I'll have to tumble, pan, or hand butter those babies. 'Course if I hit on a 1.5 MOA combo, then my priorities might change...... Who needs food?

[fredj338]

GC problem: I've re-examined the boolits that aren't taking the GC's right. Some bases are are a casting /sprue cutoff problem, but several of the others appear just fine, but yet the GC just refuses to go on square and seat properly. (I assume that a cockeyed GC seating is not a good thing.)

Ah, while I love toys and would like to go out and get a lube/sizer setup, the $225.00 plus isn't in the budget, particularly not until I get a whole lot closer to some usable results. Until then, I'll have to tumble, pan, or hand butter those babies. 'Course if I hit on a 1.5 MOA combo, then my priorities might change...... Who needs food?

WHen I seat GC, I press them on square before going thru the sizer. Sometimes the pressure in the Star will force lube under the GC & prevent seating but most of the time, I can get them on straight. Should be easy w/ a Lee push thru.

[Shiloh]

Go with Larsens Lube available at the bottom of the page in Shoot'in links

http://www.lsstuff.com/index.html

Others make good lube, He is a member here, hac a good product, it is priced right, and works great.

SHiloh

[1Shirt]

Went to Lars Red a few years back and never looked back. Use it for rifle and handgun and get (in some rifles) no leading to better than 2300.
1Shirt!

[fryboy]

i have the non TL version of the boolit .. albeit in a 2 cav, hornady's checks are a lil tighter than the gator checks i have been using ie; as u say they fall off before i can get them to the sizer yet if i set the check in the sizer ( regular lube sizer ) and then seat the thing it crimps it on and stays on , i havent tried it with a lee but if that's what ur using set the check on the punch then the boolit in the check and size , it may work for u or not , if not then there is a issue with the castings , a harder alloy makes the boolit a lil bigger but ur already dropping them fatter than some folks like to size down to (.002-.003) it is oft believed that that is where accuracy starts to fall off from it but that old word subjective rears it's head again , i do have to recommend a good lube and gas checks or lower velocities that choice is ur's ,we dont know how much tumble lube u are putting on but the lee stuff and the 45/45/10 have been known to take boolits to 2000 fps properly applied ,some guys have all the luck and some have to work harder at it , dont despair amigo !! i too read alot of the lube threads ( just about everyone actually lolz ) and we are blessed with alot of knowledgeable folks and great posters...btw ? reading everyone was overkill and overload and was alot of info to sort thru ,there was a post in the swapping and selling for some premade felix lube not sure if they have any left tho ,if i had the cash when they posted it i would of snagged a pound !! but i also knew that no matter what i read that it was best to just jump in there and try it ,and i admit i have made some that didnt turn out to be lube but it makes great flux !!! i mean really good flux but i also needed lube so i kept on trying lolz ,low velocity is easy enough u dont even need beeswax ,i had thought my batch of emmerts was easy and pan lubed great ,while designed as a black powder lube it works great for low velocity , umm what ur shooting i cant term low velocity ( think 1200 fps max ) gas checks usually arent needed at that speed but then i tried pearl lube and it pan lubes a lil easier ( at least for me ) so much so that i tried it for my low velocity stuff and u guessed it success !! many many things will function as lube ,evidenced by the plethora of recipes etc i havent been able to duplicate what i want yet but i also havent given up yet either
as for five's comment ..i believe he does mean change whatever lube ur using , i once simmered all the solvent out of some jpw , some folks dont do any ,if u dont add any MS it should be ok but i noted that the more i remove the thicker it is , my best batch is like chunky chocolate pudding - u know the kind u cant seem to shake off the spoon ? add a lil heat and it flows fine !! i also warm my boolits as well as the lube before i apply it ,adding a lil more carnuba should thicken it up a lil more just as adding a lil MS would thin it ,g'luck amigo !

[runfiverun]

some nice posts up there.
the visc change is just that.
based on what i see in the bbl, too bright and shiney [no antimonial wash] i cut the carnuba.
not working quite right in the cold weaher thin down the visc some [add vaseline] or a bit more mineral spirits.
lube seem a bit brittle i use lanolin.
takes too long to dry the lube, melt the jpw alone, or add a nib of b-wax or parrafin to the mix.
this whole casting thing is using the alloys we can get, and tweaking the lube just enough to suit our purpose.
trust me felix don't get mad if you change his recipe some or mix it with something else.
he just used what was available easily and his background in science to come up with a workable lube.
it took some time and a few trials/feedback to tweak it to an actual recipe.

[geargnasher]

The reason I tout FWFL as the Holy Grail of lubes for most uses are these:

1. I can make it myself, which means I can tweak it.
2. If you have only one lube/sizer machine and shoot many calibers and velocities FWFL will work well for the gamut without changing lubes. Other lubes are versatile too, but lack some/many of the other advantages of FWFL.
3. I can understand the function of each ingredient in the mix, and that makes it much easier to diagnose problems when they arise.
4. It is, hands down across all calibers I've shot with it, the most accurate and consistent lube I've ever used. The only time it let me down was when I was greener and used the "more is better" philosophy with the castor/mineral oils and accuracy would go to pot when the barrel got hot (even noticable with pistol, groups blew way up).
5. It is pleasant smelling, mostly organic, and has many uses other than boolit lube.
6. Like r5r said, Felix ain't gonna get mad if you go monkeying with his recipe!

Most of us that make it, in fact, have our own pet versions of it. I've settled on half-pound of wax per batch but make multiples of that at a time, usually quadruple. I've also settled on the exact formula Felix and Wiljen worked out using stearic acid powder instead of Ivory soap, and extra carnauba wax to make the lube slightly more heat tolerant. I boosted the amount of carnauba myself back when I first started making it and stuck with it because it makes the lube's melt point quite a bit higher and that is very good for Texas Heat, Wiljen and Felix boosted it in WilJen's recipe to compensate for the lower melting point of stearic acid vs. the sodium stearate in Ivory soap.

Just my reasons, there are a ton of other really good lubes out there, and you'll come to your own conclusions which ones work best for you. Actually your guns will tell you, all you have to do is pay attention!

Gear

[okksu]

So I cooked up batches of Felix Lube and Fryxell's 50/50 Favorite last night for comparison this weekend my with 45/45/10 TL.

Fryxell's cooked without any suprises, just mash out the lumps of grease; Cooking this up is an outdoor project for sure, the smell and posible spills of lithium/moly EP bearing grease I used inside the house would be grounds for divorce. My "double boiler" was a sauce pan and a cheap alum. mixing bowl big enough to set in, but not contact the water in the pan. Cooled, about the consistency of a room temp Hershey's bar. Pan lubing filled out the grooves nicely.

The FWFL I think ended up alright too, but wasn't expecting this: when I added the soap shavings, (@ 1/2), they started to melt, but when stirred, the whole thing foamed up almost like a tan lumpy egg white mirangue. (Maybe too much at one time? Too hot? Supposed to happen?) That eventually incorporated into the melted beeswax with more stirring. Off the heat, I added some KIWI cordovan, and the lanolin. Cooled out a little stiffer than my FF 50/50, but also filed the grooves well.

I did cook up extra castor/mineral to make another batch if it does well. Did this one outdoors too, but the honey smell of the beeswax was nice; doesn't get overwhelmed by the smell of bearing grease......

[waksupi]

When making FWFL, just add soap until slight foaming appears. At this point, you have reached proper saturation, and any more is probably a waste.

[geargnasher]

That foaming is the moisture in the soap boiling off, Felix says Ivory is about 70% stearate and the rest I assume contains a lot of glycols (by-products of the oils used in soapmaking, also good for the skin due to being hygroscopic). Don't worry about it, it's normal. If you grate your soap and leave it in the sun or on top of the fridge/water heater for a few days it won't do that, but really who cares as long as you cook it until it all melts in.

You now know one of the reasons why I prefer Felix's formula, it's right pleasant to make compared to the grease stuff or even Speed Green, especally with good, hard, yellow wax with that hint of honey smell.

Gear

[Changeling]

Take a look at some really nice Bees Wax, it's #20 post.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=87635

Hip did a really great job.