Fluxing with Sawdust

[geargnasher]

I have gotten dirt in my melt every time I have stirred the saw dust into my melt.
Yes I have been aggressive with the stirring. I can't explain how burnt wood can sink to the bottom of molten lead, but it seems to do just that. It doesn't "sink", bits of ash/charcoal shed off of the tip of your stirring stick as it ablates in the hot melt. If you're scraping the bottom, that junk will be trapped underneath.
There also seems to be a big difference in weather you are bottom feeding or using a ladle.
I had the same problem with kitty litter causing dirt. The K/L and the S/D both seem to protect the top of the melt but can deposit what amount to dirt in our castings if stirred into the mix. Same principle as above. BTW, Kitty Litter doesn't actually reduce oxides back into the melt.
Today I got out the old H&G #68 4 hole Just to prove to myself that I wasn't getting to old here and forgetting how to cast.
I remelted all the screw up bullets from my now pain in the a$$ brass mold. I used new smelted alloy with 2% tin and the old alloy without the tin.
Well you would have thought it was raining bullets. I had to refill the old 10# pot
every 10 to 12 Min. casting on # 4--Yup #4 on the old lee pot.
I got a pile WC's to last most the summer. I guess I blew through 25 pounds of metal.
I say without any jesting they were some nice bullets--no dirt and no pock marks on one side of the bullet. like the brass mold.
I fluxed like I said above. Wax, stir while smoking, skim the top, and then
a cover of saw dust and leave it alone. I did not stir the saw dust into the mix, and I wont in the future --ever. Doing so has ruined 4 or 5 casting sessions so far and it wont anymore.
Do as you may --but for me enough is enough.
As a side note I think when we explain things in the future we should try not to leave out little details, There are to many new folks coming on and we could make life a little nerve racking for them, and for some of us old casters. I agree, but ultimately a person must engage their own problem-solving skills rather than be spoon-fed every detail that we could possibly anticipate. The best I can do is tell it how I do it and try to watch for someone who's struggling with something and ask questions/offer tips when I can.
WOW did I say old--am I old now? I got to stop using that word.
I think for me the most learning happens when we stay on a subject and grind out the problems. Yes, indeed!

Sam

I've learned more here in less than two years than in 15 years on my own, thanks to all the helpful folks here, on topics similar to this. When I get all the answers to all the questions you can call ME old!

Gear

[qajaq59]

I've learned more here in less than two years than in 15 years on my own,

That's because we're all learning from everyone elses mistakes and experiments. It would take forever to make that many on your own.

[Hondo Lane]

This is the first time I have heard of sawdust -fluxing and I have been casting for 30 years.

[gray wolf]

I think this has been a wonderful discussion,
and I would like to thank everyone for adding to it.------------- I agree we can't hold everyones hand, perhaps I/we-- choose the wrong words sometimes and it comes across the wrong way.
But to me the important thing is that you all pick up on things and are happy to go deeper and help folks get to the bottom of the problem.
I was having a heck of a time with the saw dust thing, and I believe it has been solved.
A sticky would be nice, we could call it---So you want to flux with saw dust--
Anyway, good job men.

Sam

[qajaq59]

The forums are here so we can all learn from each other. And if we pick the wrong word once in a while, I don't think anyone should really get upset about it. No one I know is perfect.
And this was a good thread. It had all the pros and cons so that people can chose what to do and know what problems to look for.

[geargnasher]

The main reason I like to use sawdust is it seems to help re-alloy antimony when it does its "oatmeal" thing on top of the melt, especially if I'm adding babbit, type metal, or high-antimony lead alloy to a pot. May be my imagination, but it works for me.

One more thing I just learned recently by "accident" is when "smelting" scrap lead in my iron pot on the outdoor fryer burner is to add a cup or so of used engine oil or dirty diesel fuel to a couple handfulls of sawdust to the stuff when I first light the burner, then light the oily sawdust. The extra heat from the burning mess cuts smelting time in half or more, plus provides a low-oxygen enviroment with plenty of carbon-rich soot in which the oxidized scrap can melt. When it's molten, all the oxides are already reduced back in, all I have to do is skim the ash and pour my ingots. I do this outside, of course!

Funny thing is I found out lots of other folks do this same thing, really saves the propane.

Gear

[Zbench]

For what it's worth, definitely agree with the suspended crud hypothesis.

I use a RCBS bottom pour pot. It worked for a few melts and produced great boolits. Over time, virtually all the boolits I cast had some surface inclusions. I tried everything...different fluxes, different techniques casting, you name it.

I recently had some 20:1 in the pot from some 50-70 boolits I was working on. I drained it all out because I wanted to switch over to Lyman #2 to make some .380 HPs with the new Miha mould I recently got. I do most of my casting at night in the garage after things quiet down, so I drained the pot and quit for the evening.

By chance, I had time during the day to cast some, so I returned to the pot. Since it was bright in the garage, I noticed to my surprise a thick, like 1/16" thick, layer of crud on the walls of the pot. I used to use that blasted marvelux flus and it was the residue from that I imagine.

Since I obviously didn't want to start with all that in there, I took a wire wheel on my hand drill and cleaned it out. Since the pot liner is stainless steel on the RCBS, I got it all out.

SAFETY NOTE: Airborne lead dust is not good for you...wear a respirator!!!

It took about 10 minutes, but I got the pot back down to shiny. I blew it out with compressed air outside, cleaned the nozzle and put it back together. I loaded it up with some fresh Lyman #2 and commenced casting.

I was blown away with the quality of the boolits. A picture is attached. I reasoned that the residue from that Marvellux was coating the sides of the pot. When I would stir the pot, bits of it would break off and contaminate the melt with that stuff. Somehow, as is mentioned above, it would get into the spout and into the boolits.

Since this revelation a few weeks ago, I have only used saw dust. It does not leave any residue like wax or marvellux, and the sides of my pot are still clean. Most importantly, all the boolits I cast come out well formed, shiny and with no inclusions.

If your pot is giving you fits, do a thorough cleaning, and only use sawdust. Works for me!

Pete

[257 Shooter]

Pete, Those are some shiny boolits!

[cbrick]

wood ash from the sawdust, or more particularly, the stick used to stir, will get trapped under the lead on the bottom of the pot, just like drops of water in the bottom of a cup full of diesel or gasoline. Gear

Hhmmm . . . I think we need a different comparison here. Not arguing with what your trying to say, it's just that what your using as a comparison isn't quite right, kind of backwards.

Wood ash, saw dust or the carbon from these are far, far lighter than lead and will float on top of the lead.

Water is heavier than oil so the oil will float on top on top of the water.

Rick

[cbrick]

By chance, I had time during the day to cast some, so I returned to the pot. Since it was bright in the garage, I noticed to my surprise a thick, like 1/16" thick, layer of crud on the walls of the pot. I used to use that blasted marvelux flus and it was the residue from that I imagine.

Since I obviously didn't want to start with all that in there, I took a wire wheel on my hand drill and cleaned it out. Since the pot liner is stainless steel on the RCBS, I got it all out.

SAFETY NOTE: Airborne lead dust is not good for you...wear a respirator!!!

It took about 10 minutes, but I got the pot back down to shiny. I blew it out with compressed air outside, cleaned the nozzle and put it back together. I loaded it up with some fresh Lyman #2 and commenced casting.

I was blown away with the quality of the boolits. A picture is attached. I reasoned that the residue from that Marvellux was coating the sides of the pot. When I would stir the pot, bits of it would break off and contaminate the melt with that stuff. Somehow, as is mentioned above, it would get into the spout and into the boolits. Pete

Mr Zbench sir, I couldn't agree with you more. Several years ago I literally threw a full can of Marvelux in the trash. I wouldn't allow that horrid stuff anywhere near my loading/casting room.

Like you I had to use a stiff wire wheel on the drill motor with considerable time and effort to try and clean it off. That was with the RCBS pot which is now clean and completely free of that disgusting white powder. Since I got the Magma 40 pound pot a few years ago it has seen NOTHING but saw dust and the inside is spotless to this day and so are my boolits.

It's not uncommon for me to be asked how my boolits look so good and the answer is very simple, clean alloy, clean pot. So why is my alloy and pot so clean? Simple, very, very simple. Sawdust. No Marvacrap, no wax, no oil. IMHO wax's and oils are only slightly better than Marvacrap, they gunk up the inside of the pot and most wax's and oils stink something horrible.

Flux is like boolit lube, when someone has their favorite there is no talking to them about it, their way is best and that's that. Ok, fine. Let them scratch their heads trying to figure out why they have inclusions in their boolits.

Rick

[Zbench]

Cbrick,

I think the wax, to your point, is also to blame. I used it intermittently in place of marvellux and it burned up, but also left an oily residue on the side of the pot. I think that combinations of marvelux and wax only made the flaking problem worse as it could easily break off inside the pot.

It only stands to reason that a flux that doesn't burn or otherwise cause any kind of residue has to impact the pot and melt LESS than any that does.

When I was struggling with pitted boolits, I search high and low in the archive to find the cause. I never saw anything which led me to this conclusion, so I hope others who see this will also get their pots cleaned up and start enjoying casting instead of fighting it.

Pete

[Cowboy T]

+1 for sawdust. I use it in my Lee Pro 4-20, getting good boolits virtually every time. Oh, and sawdust is cheap and plentiful.

[Three44s]

I quit Marvelux a long time ago ........ I grew tired of the cruded up tools and lead pot ......

My next fluxing agent was boolit lube.

Much better!

Today, I tried a long dried wooden stick for a scraper and sawdust for the fluxing agent.

Never tried this before ....... I have been reading about it here for sometime!

I too had some surface inclusions that I did not get with boolit lube for flux.

My pot is so old it does not even have a name on it (made before written language was invented I suppose ...... LOL!!) and it needs a good rotary brushing!!!

Three 44s

[Hang Fire]

Sawdust, or most anything that turns into carbon will work. Some guys even use leaves. I like the cedar because it smells better, but anything will do.
And Dragonrider is absolutely right. It is NOT as dry as you may think it is, so be careful.

Be aware that western red cedar smoke can induce pulmonary problems for some people. I know that it is a no no for those with asthmatic conditions.

[qajaq59]

Be aware that western red cedar smoke can induce pulmonary problems for some people. I know that it is a no no for those with asthmatic conditions.

I don't have asthma, but someone might, so adding that was a good idea.

[dragonrider]

Just reread this post and found a few more who are seeing the great results that sawdust will bring to your leadpot.
Grey Wolf, I would suggest that you not use pine shavings in your pot. Drain your pot, clean it thouroughly and from then on use only hardwood sawdust. this is just a thought but it could be the pitch in the pine is causing your problem. I have a 20 lb Lee pot for about 2 years now and it has seen nothing but sawdust, 99% hardwood. I do not have the problem you describe, the walls of my pot are as clean now as when it was new just darker from heat.

[gray wolf]

Grey Wolf, I would suggest that you not use pine shavings in your pot. Drain your pot, clean it thouroughly and from then on use only hardwood sawdust. this is just a thought but it could be the pitch in the pine is causing your problem. I have a 20 lb Lee pot for about 2 years now and it has seen nothing but sawdust, 99% hardwood. I do not have the problem you describe, the walls of my pot are as clean now as when it was new just darker from heat.

Thank you for your concern

I was under the impression that pine pitch ( resin = Rosen ) was a good thing for fluxing,
and that Rosen was a great flux for stubborn dirty metal.
I am a little up and down over here as for the saw dust. I still think my opinion of it is that
I LIKE IT --I had gone back to wax for the last three or 4 pot fulls and the pot got all dirty again, the bullets were OK but the pot was all crusted up from the wax.
I went back to the saw dust ( pine shavings ) and after three pots of metal my pot is clean again. Outside and inside.
I am back to melting the lead, then adding the saw dust and after it is burned and brownish in color I stir it into the lead and leave it sit as I cast. I have cast a pile of bullets with 2% tin, and some 25/1 and have only had 1 or 2 little specks in 1 or 2 bullets.
I consider that very acceptable. I had introduced an old tree branch into my mix as a stirring stick and I think that is when I had a very hard time with dirt. Who knows ??
I cast this morning with the pine saw dust and some 25/1 and all was OK.
Then again I may have broken loose some baked on crud from the sides of my pot and that may have caused my problem, again who knows.
I have to say that two many people use the saw dust with great success so I am going to retract my statement about never using it again. After all I had good results since I went back to it.
I will look for some hard wood saw dust and see if I can find some.

Sam

[Changeling]

There was some really good information on this posting. It seems that even guys that have been posting for a while have learned new things and people like me who know nothing, are getting first class free lessons on how its done, thanks to all. Still some confusing things so I'll keep lurking for a while.

[Changeling]

What kind of pot and where is it stored? When I went from a cast pot or steel pot to stainless my dross dropped by half or more. If it's stored where dust and dirt can get in it then you'lll have dirt in the pot as soon as it melts.

Hello. First off I've only cast sinkers and jig hooks so I know nothing.

Below i read that you pour almost all of your bullets by ladle casting. Since someone has stolen my new in the box RCBS bottom pour pot I will be casting with a ladle also.

You said that things were better when you went to a Stainless steel pot for casting. I now have NO casting pot so can you tell me what kind of SS pot you use? I have a really good (I hope so) electric commercial heat plate that will go to 1000 deg.
Is your SS pot a kitchen pot, or is it a SS pot specifically designed for guys who ladle casting?

I could really use some help here if you have the time.

[dragonrider]

Ok Wolf looks like you on the road to success. Glad to hear it.